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Destiny 2

Diskutiere über alles, was mit Destiny 2 zu tun hat.
Bearbeitet von Lost Sols: 1/10/2020 3:22:37 PM
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No, the game isn't "too focused on casuals" and it's time to stop blaming regular players for everything in this game.

So I've been seeing a lot of "casuals are ruining (insert activity) in Destiny" takes again the last week or two and then yesterday I saw the latest Forbes article from Tassi on the subject and think it's time to point out a few things. To start, for anyone who didn't read it, I'm not linking it, look out up if you want, but the gist of it was whether or not Destiny is being catered too much towards "casuals" (and he chose to say "again"), as well as bringing up a tweet thread by Gladd complaining about the same thing and how the game needs to be more hardcore because poor Gladd isn't able to make enough content. This pile is deep. I'm going to start with wondering why a Forbes writer is posting a tale of woe about a dude who is one of the raunchiest members of the community and the streamer equivalent of a 90's shock-jock radio host, with content about violating himself with hamsters and posting from his Summit visit about swinging his junk in his hotel window. Real classy dude that totally we should feel bad the game is too easy for him. But beyond that, the whole "casual" as a slur garbage is the gaming equivalent of classism and grade school indoctrination into right wing hate culture. Playing a game for a living doesn't make anyone more "hard core" or more of a "gamer" than someone who can only play when life lets them throughout the week and this constant use of "casuals" to demean and dismiss, as well as blame all the game's "problems" is a load of crap. Then there's the fact that, I don't know about anyone else, but I know I'm tired of listening to the Gladds and Gothalions of the community always ripping "casuals", the game and Bungie the second everything isn't 100% about them when the high profile influencers have driven the lion's share of development feedback the last 4 years. The game that exists today is massively a product of their criticisms and complaints and it's garbage that they pretend that they're not culpable for where things stand. So let's backtrack -again-, because it seems like history gets rewritten a lot. Destiny 1 was a great game, but one that Bungie felt needed a fresh start and a new game for D2 and despite all the negative takes that piled on after the first month of vanilla D2, it did get a lot right, starting with investment. It was a game that allowed players to come and go and not feel left behind, and also allowed us to play multiple characters with ease and constantly change not only characters, but loadouts and play styles. It also had true endgame difficulty content that was deeply challenging with prestige difficulty raids and a sandbox that made content much more challenging overall than we have now. Certainly the game was not perfect, and both PvP and PvE needed to be better overall, but there was a really good foundation there that ultimately never got a chance to hit it's stride because a month in, all the big name content creators and high level PvP players went completely toxic on the game and started all the "dead game" crap and making anti-Destiny/Bungie content because it got easy likes and views. So let's look at where the game is today with the complaints about not enough or drip-fed content, and underwhelming exotic quests and look back at what that massive backlash led to, which was the studio basically stopping development on a lot of future content and moving essentially the entire studio to making massive changes and rebooting a game that was itself a reboot. The massive changes to the sandbox, leveling, investment, economy, etc came at a cost. Instead of building onto what existed and adding more weapons, armor, strikes, missions, etc, resources went to the reboot; and certainly there was still the content that had already been started and was in the pipeline with Gambit, Warmind and Forsaken, but there's no doubt that the deeper we got into year 2, the more we caught up to the effects of diverted resources year 1. Then we had year 2 itself which was the baby of all that hate and toxicity from the "hard core" and influencer crowd. It was ultra punishing in leveling, in investment, in grinding, in RNG and in PvP as well with the high profile PvP influencers pressuring Bungie into removing skill from matchmaking. And all the big names patted themselves on the back because they had "saved Destiny". Until around Season of the Drifter when everyone else checked out of PvE and PvP because we couldn't take it anymore and wanted a game, not another job. Oh, and another casualty of overall lack of development resources in year 2 was hard mode raids. I could be wrong, but I would be shocked if the decision to go with one difficulty wasn't affected by trying to catch up elsewhere. So then what happened? Bungie not only had to use more resources to once more make big changes to PvP, investment, economy, armor, etc, but they also split with Activision due to friction from the way year 2 devolved. So here we are in year 3 and Bungie have tried to keep the content structure that the community and the big names have said they like with seasonal content and new things every few weeks/months. We've also seen new arena after new arena instead of strikes and updates to older content like planet vendors, because this was also feedback that was given on what the "community" wanted more of. So here we are in year 3 with Bungie still playing catch-up and trying to get to the point where they can just build forward without constantly having to backtrack and reboot and it's not surprising that content is light at this point when you look at the big picture and how much development time was lost that could/should have been more new content we're getting now instead of what was spent on rebuilding then. Does anyone believe that Bungie doesn't want factions back in the game? The fact that we have nothing yet regarding them speaks volumes to how big a game of catch-up Bungie is playing, and certainly that is on the decision makers at the studio as well, and there have been calls that missed the mark, but there's also still been a lot of good and at some point the studio needs to say this is the game we believe in and stick to their vision. The game isn't too "casual". It certainly could use more legitimate endgame, but that doesn't mean the game shouldn't be accessible, and even the raids that exist are now leveling content vs true endgame because of the worlds first races. So once more content that could be more challenging that isn't has nothing to do with "casual" players and everything to do with the high profile players. The game needs a lot, but at this point what it needs is new weapons and armor, new strikes, factions, more actual story, etc, and hard modes for existing content like raids. What it doesn't need is Paul Tassi, Gladd, Gothalion or other big names pressuring Bungie into once more making infrastructure changes to make the game more "hard core". We literally went through this with vanilla D2 into Forsaken and I honestly can't believe we're seeing the same garbage now. Crapping on regular players to make the game better for content creators didn't work the first time, let's not keep making the same mistakes. The game can have content for those players without sacrificing everyone else and if players are willing to take a deep breath and give Bungie time to just build forward, I think we'll see a game that everyone can be happy with and love.

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  • Bearbeitet von Cosmic Owl: 1/11/2020 3:49:07 AM
    Well the casuals thing goes both ways. No it shouldn’t be a slur because let’s be honest, it’s a game, it’s supposed to be casual. But at the same time, people also need to realize that games should appeal to hardcore gamers as well or people who want a high skill ceiling and just as some content needs to be easy and appeal to people that don’t have a ton of time to put in, there also needs to be content for the high end as well. The problem is the “casuals” often come into forums complaining that some things are too hard and want them dumbed down, or they want things nerfed in PvP because they don’t understand how to deal with it. The biggest issue there is that some people can’t handle the idea that certain aspects of the game may be out of their reach, but then how are devs supposed to appeal to everyone? I wouldn’t describe myself as hardcore or casual, maybe somewhere in the middle, but personally I’m ok with their being certain things I might not get around to doing. I like that there are challenging things to do in a game that I may or may not get to. But I agree that hardcore shouldn’t translate into grindy or all time consuming activities just so streamers can have content.

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  • Casuals are ruining gaming

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    8 Antworten
    • "Right Wing Hate Culture"... I'd hate to say it, but it's not just "Right Wing" that has a hate culture...

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      • Bearbeitet von pT x ICEMAN x: 1/11/2020 3:27:55 AM
        “Right wing hate culture” what?!?!?!

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      • Bump

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      • Just want to throw it out there that sometimes people make posts only to get upvotes on here.

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      • just like I say on other posts, they need more incentive for the game... they are going the way of nerfing everything an adding exotics that sound good on paper but simply don't work and trying to make everything even and fair, which makes everything seem the same... I dont think thats a casuals or regular player issue, they should just make the game to be fun, make people feel powerful, heros, and part of the world, nerfing everything in to the ground and catering to one specific group is a big no no, no matter what not everyone will be happy with everything.

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      • Don’t agree with your politics. Maybe leave that out next time. Boo.

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      • Bearbeitet von eyemJosh: 1/10/2020 10:28:31 PM
        This would be a good post if you hadn’t brought politics in to it. As it stands you’re a hypocrite that has no right to call anyone out.

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        4 Antworten
        • Bearbeitet von MySilentGas: 1/10/2020 11:30:11 PM
          I only disagree with the op on one thing Left Wing Hate groups exist not just Right....... Otherwise 👍 on the post..... [spoiler]Also streamers can go stuff themselves[/spoiler]

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        • I do think people overlook Gambit, but at the same time, their game has gotten too large too fast. I would love to have endgame that was interesting. But Bungie told all of us that these expansions won’t be large. They said that numerous times before shadowkeep. And I was still pleasantly surprised that the content was still a bit more than rise of Iron. But I think they’ve missed the mark with their endgame and the way that seasons have become. Returning to my statement about how the game is too large, the game is so large now that the content that I buy won’t stay. This creates an obvious FOMO effect, that honestly, is fake. Every gun will disappear, but name one that if I don’t have that I’ll be bad for the rest of the game? Another problem will be the saint 14 mission. Shadowkeep story is available forever, but the story for saint will be gone in a month! What a bunch of bologna! I’m the end, FOMO exists, half the guns don’t feel that interesting, and so much more. But they did warn us about this as well. So I can’t complain at the same time.

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        • Bearbeitet von Soul: 1/11/2020 1:58:14 AM
          You seem to have some serious hate for content creators and it seems totally unjustified. I don't agree with many of them a lot of the time, but they are just gamers, like us, and opinions are opinions. If you want to blame anyone for issues with the game - blame Bungie. They made each and every decision about the game, no one else. Did content creators have an opinion? Sure. Did Bungie need to listen? No. There's also the very important point that if Bungie hadn't thrown out 90% of the learning from D1 and released a beta version of D2 that was bereft of content and features, they wouldn't have had to try to fix so much. Was it content creators at fault too for Bungie doing that? You also seem to be assuming that Bungie really wants to improve things in the way the community (casual or hardcore alike) wants. They are making mega money off the game right now so why would they bother changing it up much? It's pretty clear from the content we're seeing now that Bungie is skeleton crewing the game while they work on other projects - D2 is really just a cash cow that's barely being fed.

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          • Word wall is boring, I also find it completely insane you have 120 raid clears in the f-n leviathan and EoW combined. That’s just insanity. P.s. this game has gotten bad again and bungie hates fun.

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          • Bearbeitet von TJ_Dot: 1/10/2020 4:48:44 PM
            You don't blame the people that aren't necessarily doing anything, you blame the company trying to cater to them. Using casual as an insult to another carries no weight because it means nothing. So what if someone is or not? Not like they make the decisions that created D2's shit start. That was Bungie. [b]It's always Bungie.[/b]

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            • Bearbeitet von The 7th fall: 1/11/2020 1:03:31 AM
              I hate politics invading my home and I certainly don't need it invading my games. That aside the idiot(s) complaining "Casuals" ruined Destiny are forgetting a few things: Bungle determines what gets released and set in the game, not us as the players. They get the final say, not these irksome content creators. Bungle could quite easily tell us to take a hike and that we're at their mercy. The fact that Bungle is mirroring their mistakes from D1 into D2 shows how bad they are at making even just an acceptable game to play.

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              • Really great post. Destiny has already gifted the hardest Nightfall to the streamers and the elite teams (good for them for being so good at the game). It's the only real place to farm endgame high-end upgrade materials - and they kinda have this exclusive access. If the rest of the game's activities are at a place where players would rather actually attempt to succeed rather than succeed vicariously through some random streamer, I'd say the game is in a good place.

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                6 Antworten
                • You make a lot of good points, but I don't think it's possible to make Destiny a game that will satisfy everyone, especially many of the people who regularly air their grievances in this forum. Some people play 4 hours a week and others play 4 hours a day. Some people do everything in pre-made fireteams and some people almost always play solo or use matchmaking. It's just common sense that what constitutes a challenging activity for some is going to be less challenging for others. Obviously there needs to be a spectrum of difficulty if all players are to be offered an appropriate level of challenge that makes the game rewarding to play. The problem is that many players feel they have the "right" to be able to earn every reward offered in the game. And maybe that's an acceptable attitude. The problem is that designing a reward system and difficulty level that makes that possible for the "casual" player is inevitably going to trivialize the content for the "hardcore" player. And yet both need to be accomadated. I believe that what has to happen is that a "casual" player who plays 4 hours a week, needs to accept that there's a good chance they're not going to be able to complete every activity at the highest level or earn every reward. I also believe the "hardcore" player needs to accept more responsibility for challenging themselves instead of complaining that everything is "easy". A "hardcore" player should focus more on the "playing" of the game and less on rewards. They need to accept that there are going to be fewer exclusive rewards that primarily result from the ability to play more often. Creating a system that works for both types of players is going to require compromises in the attitudes that each individual player brings to the table.

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                • Great post and I agree with mostly everything except bring in the politics during the one point. Keep it out of games, please.

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                • Content creators are self employed, they need to adapt or they will fail. The idea that the developer is responsible for the content creators business is just arrogant. My personal view on content creators is this: they make a living by using someone else’s creation, they should be grateful and not be making demands of the true “creators”

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                • The problem is that Luke Smith and Bungie have came out and said they want the game to focus on the "hard-core" Community, they're openly discouraging casual players and this has Bungies core streamers and fan boy's becoming even more toxic against whoever they deem to be casual players.

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                • Playing games casually is actually a very healthy and liberating thing. Playing them to the point you're disgruntled and displaying signs of addiction, that's not. Well for me, I belong to the latter but I'm slowly working my way back to a healthy understanding of what games are supposed to be in the grand scheme of life. I'd love to be a filthy casual (assuming obsession and play time are the criteria for what make you casual). Thing is, I already know this game doesn't hold up for me on those terms. For me, this is just a game of repetitive addiction. So the day I'm a casual, it's somewhere else. And I have a feeling there aren't as many casuals floating around this game as people think anyways. Or is 20 hours a week casual at this point? All that aside, if Bungie is trying to make a game fun and attractive to people who won't or can't put in that much time that's not casuals ruining the game. That's Bungie's decision.

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                  • I honestly don’t think Bungie is suffering from catch-up syndrome right now. I think they’re behind, but that has more to do with lack of extra teams from the Activision split. I think they caught up to where they wanted to be sometime near the end of year 2. That said, I think the rest of your post is 100% spot on. And as much as many of us like content creators, I think THEY are what one of the biggest problems in Destiny is. Even the ones who go out of their way to be non-toxic and inclusive. Most players don’t have the time to drop into experimenting with every gun, every map, and every build just to mess around so they take content creators’ opinions as gospel a lot of the time. And then when a creator says “this sucks,” people are so used to taking them at face value, that becomes their stance too, even if they’re not truly sure if it’s true or not for them. And content creators usually have different agendas (it is a business after all) and play all day long. If I put in 10 hours a day, I’d think the content is lacking and progression. Isn’t challenging either. I play anywhere from 10-20 hours a week and I barely finished the battle pass last season and though I’m further ahead than I was this time last season, it’ll take me most to finish it this season. I think the game requires too much time. There are now too many things to do. And when I’m playing the same amount of time as a heavy part time job, hard to call me a casual.

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                  • Bearbeitet von TattooedOni: 1/11/2020 1:51:03 AM
                    If you google “Paul Tassi Destiny Casuals” you get two articles. The one this post references and [b][i]this one [/i][/b] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2018/12/13/yes-destiny-2-needs-to-cater-more-to-casuals-to-some-extent/amp/ 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Paul Tassi is basically just a different type of content creator and will say whatever fits the moment to get attention on his articles. Not a journalist.

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                    15 Antworten
                    • If you won't link it I will. www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2020/01/09/has-destiny-2-become-too-focused-on-casuals-again/amp/

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                    • Destiny is a casual game. Nothing hardcore about it and this is coming from an average player. PvP is a shambles and the comp playlist isn't even competitive. Raids well if you've got the intelligence to remember every mechanic you'll breeze on by no problem. The higher content i.e. 980 Nightfalls and Nightmare hunts are somewhat Casual once you work on them. I'd really like more of a challenge someday and for the game to truly have it's Hardcore and Casual elements. But for now it's quite frankly a casual breeze.

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                    • Was hoping for a TL;DR since you post a wall of text. To be real this game is very casual focused because you dont have to grind for shit. You can't power up except for once a week on your characters. so after you have done all your powerfull and pinicle gear for the week, what else do you have to do? absolutely nothing. Destiny 1 was a grind fest and everyone loved it except for the casual players who didn't have the time to grind out stuff. So basically yes this game is focused on casual players more then hard core grinders who dont mind spending hours every day grinding to get what they want. Hell i even took month long breaks from Destiny 2 and im still max power on my Warlock and in the almost max power on my hunter and titan, and have almost every single exotic in the game TL;DR If you can completely every weekly activity in the game in 1-2 days.....then its a casual players game.

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