Trials isn't the only thing to look at or consider the most important. It only happens occasionally, not every day of the week, and there are far fewer people in trials than the rest of the game. It's important to note the things that are extra prevalent in Trials to address, but not to ignore other things because of it.

As I said before. It doesn't make sense for 12 people to run around a map with snipers in regular crucible. It would make sense for most people to use shotguns in 6's as most maps in this game are close-medium distance engagement. And not only trials but snipers are still putting up competitive numbers of kills in all 3's types - where they should be used. Especially in elimination they are nearly doubling shotgun kills still. Thirdly, trials is exactly what should be looked at. The long term in this game solely revolves around trials. That's why people are still logging on to play pvp. That's no secret that trials is the competitive scene that is enticing daily active users to return. So either way you look at it the secondary use in this game is exactly how it should be.

I have yet to see a single match with all 12 people running around with snipers. Not even close to that since they increased flinch. [quote]Especially in elimination they are nearly doubling shotgun kills still.[/quote] As they should, because if you consider the game type, shotgunning is generally more risky due to teams being extra cautious and snipers should still be effective. It's idiotic to only look at Trials and see snipers being used more and think there's no problem with shotguns elsewhere or that there's a larger, more important problem with snipers than shotguns. Trials and other game modes are all different contexts. So if in another context, shotguns are being used as much as primaries and say less than 10% of special kills are being from snipers, then obviously there's a problem with shotguns that what's happening in Trials shouldn't override decisions. [quote]Thirdly, trials is exactly what should be looked at. The long term in this game solely revolves around trials. [/quote] I guarantee you less than half of active players play it... No, see trials is the very thing that got us into a lot of our problems. Trials is the reason we get nerfs and things that affect PvE the most. Because a minority who loves trials so much are too loud and thinks everything revolves around them. If we never had Trials to begin with, there would be less issues with PvP balancing. There wouldn't be DDoS attacks. There wouldn't be babies crying about which map it is this week. There wouldn't be streamers and cheaters making money off of gullible people who think they HAVE to get to the lighthouse. We wouldn't have a gun like Doctrine of Passing running amok in regular Crucible. So no, the right thing to do is look at the bigger picture and look at what more people are playing. The right thing to do is look at things contextually and not make blanket changes for all PvP because of ONE game mode or only focusing on 3v3 game types.

The fact that you think trials isn't responsible for this games success tells me you have no idea what you're talking about

The fact that you think it's the ONLY thing that has ever mattered makes you delusional.

I never said that. I said it's responsible for the long term success of this game.

ToO has a set map every week, meaning they want it to have a specific loadout, but in regular crucible you can play 10 maps with the same low impact pulse, matador, and put whatever you want on the heavy slot since it doesn't matter.

Trials is a separate issue.

Trials is the main concern. Trials is and should be the forefront of the conversation. That is where the publicity comes from. That is where the long term daily active users come from. That's the competitive scene that's literally the only reason this game still exists. And in trials, secondary use is perfect. People are using both secondaries according to the map and environment. Not just whichever one is the meta and that's it. Snipers have significantly higher kills than any other secondary still. But people can use shotguns they can make a play with them and they can be viable options.

I understand it's importance. I just think balancing based entirely on trials would be foolish since the majority of the player base are casual and don't regularly play trials. We shouldn't ignore it but it isn't the focal point of general PvP. All in moderation.

I agree. But even so, as I said before, it makes sense that 80% of secondary kills would be shotguns in 6v6. Honestly it should be that way. It doesn't make sense that half or more of the kills would be snipers. That's now how 6's with respawns should be played. And in 3's where snipers should be more relevant they are. Specifically trials snipers last weekend alone nearly doubled the shotgun kills

I suppose it's open for debate. I just want all playstyles to be fun in every gametype.

True but there will never be a perfect balance is 6v6 between shotguns and snipers. It just isn't achievable in this game with the map sizes and objectives.