UDATE 7/16/15: [b]HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA[/b] One of my previous posts. I couldn't find the thread, so here it is again. Note: TLW's TTK is actually [i]lower.[/i] Ridiculous. [b][i][u]I have over 8,000 kills with the Thorn[/u][/i][/b] Pre-post *The Hawkmoon is actually way more balanced than TLW/Thorn. Its stability isn't great, and its TTKC isn't completely outrageous when compared to other guns. *I am an avid user of both guns. I want them balanced because I dislike being forced to use them in order to counter them (why I use them). *No, I don't think other guns should be buffed to match these (if you were going to propose this, that just proves how out of line these guns are) because that would be 20x harder than simply balancing these 2 weapons. (TTK = time to kill) (TTKC = time to kill crit) (ADS = aim down sights) TLW TTKC: .56 Thorn TTKC: .36 (this is how long it takes to land two head shots. The number .36 does not account for the burn damage after the two head shots are landed.) [url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/tTMPEAOhYplzPIA4B07pBhQ/htmlview]Spread sheet[/url] First of all, if you're one of the few people that are actually willing to take this thread seriously, take a look at that spread sheet and pay attention to the "Time To Kill Crit" column. The hand cannon class, specifically exotic hand cannons, are vastly superior to literally every other weapon except for Red Death and Vex Mythoclast. They're two tenths of a second better than every other primary, and one tenth of a second better than the Mytho & Red Death. This means that if two players, one with TLW and one with RD, are fighting head to head, and both players are using the guns to their full potential, TLW will win 100% of the time. And no, saying "well stay out of close range to avoid TLW" isn't a valid option because of the current maps. The Last Word (TLW) I'll start with TLW. First of all, TLW's exotic perk is broken. It's supposed to deal bonus damage when hip fired, right? Well, currently it's bugged and exploitable. Ever notice how sometimes you'll ADS with it and gain bonus damage? That's the bugged part. Sometimes it randomly decides to give you extra damage. However there's currently an exploit (or bug or whatever you want to call it. Idc about the technicality) that allows you to gain the bonus damage while ADS'd 100% of the time. And it's really easy! All you have to do is press the right trigger before you press the left trigger. Keep both pressed down and bam. 111 head shots for days (I don't mind giving this info out because the more people that do it/know it, the faster it gets patched!). This means that even at medium range TLW can achieve its .56 TTKC fairly consistently. This is specially broken for skirmish where TLW shines, even without abusing its broken perk. Fix: The perk should obviously be fixed. I think we can all agree on that, even if you don't think exotic HCs are OP. The RoF also need to be lowered. I'm not sure how much it needs lowering, but I'll throw out a number and say 2%, giving other weapons a chance against this silly weapon. Thorn Thorn's TTK is a bit confusing. The chart says .36, but that isn't its true TTK if we're being technical. That time (.36) is how fast you can land two head shots, which with the Thorn's stability, isn't too hard for competent players. Of course the enemy isn't immediately dead after two head shots, they still have to burn (so they're basically zombies after two head shots). I accept the number .36 as Thorn's true TTKC because most players blink away to cover after doming someone twice. .36 is MILES above ALL other weapons. That number is better than most LMGs! And the "stay out of close quarters" is an even less valid solution to countering this gun because of its range. If you actually read until this point then put "Read." before your response so I can take you seriously. Thanks. Fix: Remove the perfect balance perk from Thorn's tree and reduce its RoF by around 5%. TL;DR: No. Read the post. I'll be ignoring "git gud" type posts unless I need bumps. "I can do good without them, so they aren't OP." Good job! So can I. But you and I would undoubtedly do better with them. I have a 2.35 KD overall. I have over a 4 KD in trials. I'm approaching 30 days played. As I previously stated, I have over 8,000 Thorn kills. I participate in sweaties against top players regularly. I say this not to brag, but to add credibility to myself as these stats are the only way to judge me without playing me.