You cherry picked quotes from the cards and omitted some others. I'll break this down:
First, I'll address the cards you give as evidence that the Guardian stayed and fought.
The first Traveler card is speculation. The Narrator is a Guardian, meaning that the Narrator died, then was resurrected after the Collapse. [url=http://destiny.wikia.com/wiki/Grimoire_Cards/Ghost_Fragment:_Rasputin]Ghost Fragment: Rasputin[/url] further states that it is a common belief that the Guardian fought while the Warminds died. But this is obviously not true, because Rasputin survived. Now, this does not make the Guardian staying behind not true, but proves that what the Guardians consider the truth and what actually happened during the Collapse are two different things, therefore the Traveler card narrator is not a reliable source of information.
You then cherry picked Ghost Fragment: Traveler 2, picking only one line from 2 and ignoring that all three cards of the series.
Even without GF: Traveler 1 and 3, [url=http://destiny.wikia.com/wiki/Grimoire_Cards/Ghost_Fragment:_The_Traveler_2]the full text of 2 is:[/url]
[quote]This has been such a long chase. This will be the place you will fight. Fight and win.
But do you really know why you go where you go, and where this journey is taking you?
The chase leads you where you need to be, you believe.
Unless...you are being pushed.[/quote]
And this further requires context from [url=http://destiny.wikia.com/wiki/Grimoire_Cards/Ghost_Fragment:_The_Traveler]Ghost Fragment: The Traveler[/url] and [url=http://destiny.wikia.com/wiki/Grimoire_Cards/Ghost_Fragment:_The_Traveler_3]Ghost Fragment: Traveler 3[/url]
In short, the three segments are a logically connected monologue presumably directed to the Traveler somehow related to the titular "Dreams of Aplha Lupi (Alpha Wolf)" all three reference.
The monologue first states what we know, that the Traveler moves from system to system, cultivates life according to some grand design, then runs when the Darkness catches up to it.
But it also suggests that the Traveler itself does not know why it does so. It states that it has no memory of wanting worship or gratitude and that it has become so wary from its journey that it acts on instinct, its memories became a burden it fears.
When it says that Sol is where the Traveler will fight, it goes on to suggest that both where it goes and why it leaves is not by its own design. In fact, it outright suggests that the Traveler does not run, but rather is "pushed" by something, either the Darkness or something that drives both.
Finally, it describes a knife of million blades that pins the Traveler and strips it of its godhood. It cannot see. It has no senses. Only the "slick heart of its soul" remains, keeping alive what the Guardian feared - its memories.
When put together, these Grimoire entries outright confirm that if not for some outside force, the Traveler would have fled again but not done so because it wanted to but rather be "pushed" again.
Yes, the Traveler stayed and "fought", but it only did so because it was crippled and all but destroyed, freeing its memories and also possibly whatever influence compelled it to continue the cycle.
[url=http://destiny.wikia.com/wiki/Grimoire_Cards/Ghost_Fragment:_Mysteries]Finally, Ghost Fragment: Mysteries[/url]
In here, indeed it seems like the narrator is Rasputin, as it takes the same method of talking as it does in other fragments, but the interpretation is not clear.
Rasputin seems to suggest that the only way to defeat IT is to be alone and presumably focus everything on a singular purpose, just like IT forces itself. The Traveler does not do so, in fact, the Traveler uplifts and uses civilizations for that purpose, "weakening" itself in the process.
If we interpret that and consider the Alpha Lupi fragments, this seems to suggest that by crippling the Traveler Rasputin would do exactly that, "force" it to focus on IT rather then have it fly to uplift another civilization.
Again, on its own, this sentence does indeed suggest the Traveler fought to protect humans. But there is an overwhelming amount of evidence suggesting that is not what it meant, listed both above and bellow.
Now, next you move on to [url=http://destiny.wikia.com/wiki/Grimoire_Cards/Ghost_Fragment:_Rasputin_5]Ghost Fragment: Rasputin 5[/url] and proceed to misinterpret it. What you did here is made a mistake in the order Rasputin considered its logic as well as some minor descriptive errors.
I'll elaborate by lines of Ras 5:
Apart from the Neutrino Needle line, the first 4 lines are the usual classification Rasputin uses to categorize/tag its directives and decisions.
[quote]This is a SUBTLE ASSETS IMPERATIVE (NO HUMAN REVIEW) (NO AI-COM REVIEW) (secure/ABHOR).[/quote]
Rasputin was made to learn and to survive, therefore it created a secret imperative for itself. This is hidden from all humans and AIs. It is also aware this is a immoral, everything has gone to shit imperative.
[quote]Stand by for CRITERIA:[/quote]
These are the 8 conditions required for the imperative to be activated. They are:
[quote]Under CARRHAE (WHITE or BLACK)
If SECURITY STATE is EGYPTIAN
If event rank is TEILHARD: TRAUMATIC CONTEXT or SKYSHOCK: OUTSIDE CONTEXT
If VOLUSPA is ACTIVE and in FAILURE [synapse to FENRIR::SURTR]
If YUGA is ACTIVE and in SUNDOWN
If AI-COM has granted PERMISSIVE POTENTIATION to outboard resilient instances
If a CIVILIZATION KILL EVENT is underway [all flexions]
If tactical morality is built at MIDNIGHT[/quote]
All of these are implied or outright declared in [url=http://destiny.wikia.com/wiki/Grimoire_Cards/Ghost_Fragment:_Darkness]Ghost Fragment: Darkness[/url] and [url=http://destiny.wikia.com/wiki/Grimoire_Cards/Ghost_Fragment:_Rasputin_3] Ghost Fragment: Rasputin 3[/url] and flow in a natural order from detecting a doomsday style event, to checking for contingencies against it (and their failure) and finally for a declaration that a civilization-ending event is taking place and that AI-COM, presumably Rasputin, is seeding itself into outside channels to survive (hence it is on Mars)
This is where you made an error in interpretation, as these are all conditions Rasputin needs to activate this imperative. This means that even though it abandoned its other defensive imperatives and is seeding itself to survive, it also is actively running this function.
The next line is not a conditional as you interpreted it, but rather active monitoring of a variable and instructions if it triggers:
[quote]Stand by for DECISION POINT:
If available ISR and WARWATCH indicates imminent [O] departure
>then [O] departure compromises human/neohuman survival and epoch strategy
Stand by for ABHORRENT IMPERATIVE:
Activate LOKI CROWN
Perform deniable authorization: full caedometric and noetic release
Prevent [O] departure by any means available
[/quote]
Rasputin deduced at some point that if the Traveler leaves, everyone dies. Probably including itself and at this point, it is oriented purely on survival. It then monitors results:
[quote]Stand by for effect assessment criteria:
Coerce pseudoaltruistic [O] defensive action.
Defer civilization kill.[/quote]
Meaning it is trying to force the Traveler to defend itself and survivors and at least defers total anihilation. It is entirely possible that this is done to make sure it has time to guarantee its own survival.
Now if we put this together with GF: Traveler 1-3, we can deduce that the Traveler did indeed intend to flee, not even by its own design. Finally you state that there is no confirmation of this, but this is wrong.
Behold, [url=http://destiny.wikia.com/wiki/Grimoire_Cards/Ghost_Fragment:_Old_Russia]Ghost Fragment: Old Russia[/url]
In here, we see a ship taking off and making final checks before deploying a caedometric weapon, the same weapon that Rasputin planned to use as part of LOKI CROWN. The flight controlers even mention that this is happening under SECURE ISIS, meaning that Rasputin is keeping is secret from anyone it can, but the controlers both seem to be aware who authorized the order.
EDIT: After a conversation in this thread and reading through [url=http://db.destinytracker.com/grimoire/places/earth/ghost-fragment-old-russia-3]Ghost Fragment: Old Russia 3[/url] I have come to the realization that there is also another possible scenario - Rasputin declares humanity screwed and prepares for its MIDNIGHT contingency, thus clearing all 8 conditions in the abhorrent imperative.
Since at this point it is very likely it is one of the last Warminds, and regardless, it has control over Earths defenses, it authorizes SABER GREEN to carry a doomsday, antimater "anihilation pumped caedometric" weapon ([url=http://www.latin-dictionary.org/caedo]caedo is latin for a lot of nasty stuff[/url]), programs whatever weapons it needs to watch for sings of the Traveler leaving Sol, then disperses itself and hibernates.
SECURE ISIS is no longer maintained, mass panic ensues as humanity realizes its screwed (results in creation of the Reef and the mess at the outskirts of the Cosmodrome), the Traveler feels it needs to move again, but is stopped by the weapons Rasputin planted, but without any active involvement of Rasputin (hence everyone assumed it was destroyed beforehand)
/EDIT
So yeah no. You made mistakes in assumptions, omitted context and finally did not include Old Russia's log. Nothing here suggests that the Traveler did not intend to run for the hills, in fact it seemed not to have a choice in the matter as at this point it was moving purely by force of habbit.
EDIT: Various coding mistakes and tidying up, typos.
EDIT2: Added some additional thoughts about GF: Old Russia and its timeline.
English
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Could it be possible that the nine are the ones responsible for pushing the traveler? We know from xur that they have the ability to control wills so maybe they controlled the traveler's?
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Bearbeitet von Oak_Khan: 5/18/2016 2:14:00 AMWrong. "Ghost Fragment: Rasputin further states that it is a common belief that the Guardian fought while the Warminds died."- This is blatantly fault and destroys your whole argument, no where in this card suggests this. Lets continue "In short, the three segments are a logically connected monologue presumably directed to the Traveler somehow related to the titular "Dreams of Aplha Lupi (Alpha Wolf)" all three reference."- As you said it is speech directed at the traveler not speech from the traveler. This is buttressed by darkness 2 where a dream of alpha lupi card describes a possible will of the darkness. As such the "confusion" of the traveler you quoted is probably as a result the writers almost romantic style of writing. "But it also suggests that the Traveler itself does not know why it does so."-nullifying this. As such this suggests that the writer heard tales of the traveler fighting, as all this information must be secondhand, and added into his narrative the potential for the traveler to leave and since it wasnt added in the confusion and doubt you are hinging your argument on. And probably your biggest -blam!- up, the chronology, the traveler cards are structured chronologically as such it wasnt, rasputin attack then traveler fight no the cards suggest that the traveler was shot whilst fighting. This is not only backed up by the order of the cards but by ghost mysteries, which after deconstructing your other points reverts back to its status as a valid claim for the traveler fighting the darkness. Everything else once taking in my points i agree with but next time dont base an entire argument based on a wild tangent.
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How is it that no one has yet pointed out that there were no Guardians prior to the collapse?
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[quote]How is it that no one has yet pointed out that there were no Guardians prior to the collapse?[/quote] ...of course not. Whatever happened during the collapse, at that moment when the traveler went silent, was the seeds of eventual guardians. Now what is interesting is the Ghost, upon their creation, they remark that they have to LOOK for their guardian, meaning a guardian has been predetermined for them, why? How? The story is much deeper then it currently shows. The time is also a misconception considering how many years after the collapse did the first guardians walk the wilderness? Interesting key terms: A lot of the terms in Destiny are religious terms in many of todays culture. But none are more defined the Hinduism. Hinduism is a way of life, to reach transcendence, while enduring the cycle of life and death ("Samara"), each death as a pure soul progresses higher and higher until they achieve ("moksha") to ability to escape the infinite cycle of life and death through reincarnation. Anyways, interesting key points.
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The Ghosts being able to find their 'selected guardians' probably has to do with the fact that the traveler was already aware and connected to the people of Earth. I'd think it'd be easy enough for the traveler to send out ghosts that are able to locate a specific light signature and somehow bond with it.
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I like that. You know how in the game, we are referred to as, "the Guardian."? Maybe we are the reincarnation of somebdy important, probably during the collapse.
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It's probably who showed the most promise or were more attuned to the light than others. Maybe they had special training, who knows
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You're the Loremaster we need, as well as the one we deserve. Vote Silencer for Speaker of the Traveler in 2016
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The traveler planed to stay and fight , everything else you had was correct except that.
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Bearbeitet von ZeroCool: 5/17/2016 7:22:53 PM[quote]The traveler planed to stay and fight , everything else you had was correct except that.[/quote] Care to back up your claim? This is ridiculous, kids are growing up thinking they can just dispute something and walk off, thinking their word or the words of others are valid sources. However this is incorrect and a sad fact when your professor ask you to craft a toulmin essay and reply with the same reponse like you just did. So as to understand your claim that it was not correct, you have to substantiate that claim personally. Meaning research the grimoire, in text cite specific examples, remebering to cite cards as well for the audience to confirm the information themselves. You want to know why the OP had such a resounding approval of his two cents into the discussion? He had at least a 500 word explaination detailing events and pointing out in consistancies in the primary OPs theory. He also had references to the cards, as well as in text citation. The result is a post based off Logos and Ethos, some minor Pathos to reflect interpretations. What have you got? A simple, "Travler planned to stay and fight everything else was correct besides that." Yeah, you're not going to get anywhere with that line of BS.
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Lool you are really going into this? Ok give me a few mins and I will destroy this fluff piece.
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Bearbeitet von BRAX7ON 117: 5/18/2016 3:06:51 PMHe came through A tad late But he was right
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So any words?
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You are a gentleman and a scholar
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Thank you kind sir, but what did you think about my case. Hopefully that cleared things up for you. The other guy made a simple mistake
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No. It did not clear things up. Ever since I started reading this post two days ago I am back-and-forth on what actually happened and the picture is muddier than ever LOL. Thanks though I appreciate your hard work.
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Dammit lol, apply my correction to his post and disregard most of what OP said and you should be golden
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😴 Just woke up... Give me some time 😴 I'll get there 😉
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."Ghost Fragment: Rasputin further states that it is a common belief that the Guardian fought while the Warminds died."- This is blatantly fault and destroys your whole argument, no where in this card suggests this. Lets continue "In short, the three segments are a logically connected monologue presumably directed to the Traveler somehow related to the titular "Dreams of Aplha Lupi (Alpha Wolf)" all three reference."- As you said it is speech directed at the traveler not speech from the traveler. This is buttressed by darkness 2 where a dream of alpha lupi card describes a possible will of the darkness. As such the "confusion" of the traveler you quoted is probably as a result the writers almost romantic style of writing. "But it also suggests that the Traveler itself does not know why it does so."-nullifying this. As such this suggests that the writer heard tales of the traveler fighting, as all this information must be secondhand, and added into his narrative the potential for the traveler to leave and since it wasnt added in the confusion and doubt you are hinging your argument on. And probably your biggest -blam!- up, the chronology, the traveler cards are structured chronologically as such it wasnt, rasputin attack then traveler fight no the cards suggest that the traveler was shot whilst fighting. This is not only backed up by the order of the cards but by ghost mysteries, which after deconstructing your other points reverts back to its status as a valid claim for the traveler fighting the darkness. Everything else once taking in my points i agree with but next time dont base an entire argument based on a wild tangent.
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[quote]Lool you are really going into this? Ok give me a few mins and I will destroy this fluff piece.[/quote] "Lol" and yes, we are really going into this. Why not? Its an interesting piece of lore that demands our attention. You seem to forget that you just "challenged" a competing theory in response to the original OP theory but didn't have the type or caliber of high reasoning and educated guesses they did, rather a paltry opinion from you. Yes, I will give you more than a few minutes, considering its been an hour. But please, I encourage you to destroy this "fluff piece" because in the end thats what I crave and many others too, knowledge. I craved to be verbally destroyed in an intelligent manner if I am wrong. But if a consensus is reached and warrants are as thus, well thats to bad.
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So any words?
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."Ghost Fragment: Rasputin further states that it is a common belief that the Guardian fought while the Warminds died."- This is blatantly fault and destroys your whole argument, no where in this card suggests this. Lets continue "In short, the three segments are a logically connected monologue presumably directed to the Traveler somehow related to the titular "Dreams of Aplha Lupi (Alpha Wolf)" all three reference."- As you said it is speech directed at the traveler not speech from the traveler. This is buttressed by darkness 2 where a dream of alpha lupi card describes a possible will of the darkness. As such the "confusion" of the traveler you quoted is probably as a result the writers almost romantic style of writing. "But it also suggests that the Traveler itself does not know why it does so."-nullifying this. As such this suggests that the writer heard tales of the traveler fighting, as all this information must be secondhand, and added into his narrative the potential for the traveler to leave and since it wasnt added in the confusion and doubt you are hinging your argument on. And probably your biggest -blam!- up, the chronology, the traveler cards are structured chronologically as such it wasnt, rasputin attack then traveler fight no the cards suggest that the traveler was shot whilst fighting. This is not only backed up by the order of the cards but by ghost mysteries, which after deconstructing your other points reverts back to its status as a valid claim for the traveler fighting the darkness. Everything else once taking in my points i agree with but next time dont base an entire argument based on a wild tangent.
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[quote]."Ghost Fragment: Rasputin further states that it is a common belief that the Guardian fought while the Warminds died."- This is blatantly fault and destroys your whole argument, no where in this card suggests this. [/spoiler] [i]He is breaking down a cite by the OP and showing him what it means. He made an error in wording though, instead of "Traveler", he put "Guardian." However, if you read it, you'll eventually come across "Guardians", it isn't hard to discern that what he was really trying to say was "Traveler."[/i] [quote] "In short, the three segments are a logically connected monologue presumably directed to the Traveler somehow related to the titular "Dreams of Aplha Lupi (Alpha Wolf)" all three reference."- As you said it is speech directed at the traveler not speech from the traveler. This is buttressed by darkness 2 where a dream of alpha lupi card describes a possible will of the darkness. As such the "confusion" of the traveler you quoted is probably as a result the writers almost romantic style of writing. "But it also suggests that the Traveler itself does not know why it does so."-nullifying this.[/quote] [i]That is an interesting perspective, an your opinion on it deserves some considerations. The write style could very well give away what the authors were trying to achieve.[/i] [quote]As such this suggests that the writer heard tales of the traveler fighting, as all this information must be secondhand, and added into his narrative the potential for the traveler to leave and since it wasnt added in the confusion and doubt you are hinging your argument on.[/quote] [i]I'm not so sure what you're trying to convey here, it is confusing to say the least. However, I do have an idea.[/i] [quote]And probably your biggest -blam!- up, the chronology, the traveler cards are structured chronologically as such it wasnt, rasputin attack then traveler fight no the cards suggest that the traveler was shot whilst fighting. This is not only backed up by the order of the cards but by ghost mysteries, which after deconstructing your other points reverts back to its status as a valid claim for the traveler fighting the darkness.[/quote] [i]Chronolgy aside, I'm not entirely sure what card you mean. I distinctly remember something to that degree.[/i] [quote]Everything else once taking in my points i agree with but next time dont base an entire argument based on a wild tangent.[/quote] [i]A valid warrant, however his argument wasn't based on a wild tangent at all.[/i] Good response, a little bit of clarification on some wording there would help in trying to pinpoint what you are trying to get across.
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Oh thanks and yeah I rushed that once I remembered I was supposed to respond like 4 hrs earlier, I might clean it up for clearer understanding but I'm sure he will understand my point. He made a simple mistake it happens with the best of us, but like connected math problems, a single mistake could mean you fail the entire problem.