[quote]So I've been seeing a lot of posts recently about people hating SBMM, people hating CBMM, people who just don't know . The people who hate SBMM tend to be the higher skilled players, while the people who hate CBMM tend to be lower skilled . If you haven't listened to this weeks planet Destiny podcast, #57, i would recommend listening for about the first 45 minutes . Leif Johanson is on it, a Bungie developer and the main guy behind crimson doubles. He talks about the intricacies of having such a huge skill gap, and how this effects win loss ratio. He poses the question : "what is the perfect win / loss ratio for high skilled players ? 60/40? 70/30? " . ( edit : this was a rhetorical question on Leif's behalf. He did not propose an answer , and asked it only to get people thinking how hard it is to balance matchmaking ) The fundamental problem with designing a PvP game is that someone has to lose . Someone gets to feel badass, someone most of the time then doesn't . So should the higher skilled players be the ones who succeed more ? Should the lower skilled players lose more ? If I'm totally honest , and I think so . If you put two people into the same game won't with the same guns and the same maps, the higher skilled guy should win . Why should a higher skilled player be forced to only succeed as much a a guy who has put in half the work he has ? In what way is effectively rigging matches to achieve that perfect win/loss ratio fair ? Then you have the lower skilled player. Goes in maybe a few times at the weekend but constantly gets destroyed by people who are better . They don't [i]really [/i] care about necessarily doing great , but they want to feel badass as well. That's why they bought the game . Now , you see, when you throw lag into the mix, no one feels bad ass. People lose gunfights and games because of lag, which I know is extremely frustrating . If you want better tailored matchmaking for the best game possible, a higher chance of lag, that should be a [b]choice[/b] If you want the best connection possible , that should be a [b]choice [/b] Obviously , I'm talking about ranked playlists. Players of all skill have the choice of SBMM or CBMM, everyone wins . Oh, and dedicated servers would be nice . Edit : someone told me that trials should have SBMM so that people of every skill have to put in the same work go go flawless. I responded : " No, because higher skilled players have already put the work in to become skilled. From the way you talk, I assume you are of the lower skilled bracket. There is nothing wrong you that, it just gives you a different perspective . Very few people who are good at pvp are good naturally . I worked my ass off to become good at sniping . I spent hours on mars, practicing scoping in on a rock , with no aim assist , to get where I am. I have used NLB for hours to improve my positioning and primary aim , I used mida back in the thorn era to get good at movement . When you say to me that higher skilled players don't have to work as hard in a "luck" system , I say to you that they have already put the work in to make it easy ." Edit 2: highlights of the planet Destiny podcast with leif [url= https://youtu.be/DcqRFFlArJQ ][/url][/quote] Where can you find the discussion where they talk about the ideal win/loss ratio?

Socom 2 & 3 had the best system... oh wait those were dedicated severs... nm

I think part of the problem is that first and foremost Destiny is a loot driven multiplayer shooter with light RPG elements, which involves daily and weekly PvE reputation and material grinds, and PvP also follows this model (albeit with less focus on level requirements). This "forces" players that are interested in maxing out daily and weekly gains to play Crucible, and they could probably care less about winning or performing well unless there's a reward attached, and when there's a reward attached winning is all the sudden a BIG DEAL. Remember the Clash IB salt over performance-based bounties? ToO exclusive items locked behind win-based matchmaking? Crimson Doubles suicide squads? A large portion of the fan base could care less about SBMM in any form because it creates a block on content, and the content (loot) > the game to these folks. IMO, the Crucible and PvP event reward system needs a major overhaul to either keep the loot fiends out, or give them handouts so the salt is at a minimum and SBMM becomes less of an issue to a wider portion of the player base. Maybe this would improve the signal/noise ratio on the matchmaking issue.

I can simplify your question and obviously the Bungie developer glossed over this issue. You want "ranked" playlists? You want true "skill based" MM? You want to reduce (or virtually eliminate) latency? The answer is simple, expensive, and likely to NEVER happen in Destiny... [spoiler]DEDICATED SERVERS for PvP game modes![/spoiler]

Bump very well said without resorting to childishness

Every game should be CBMM. There's so many losers who are only "skilled" because of lag switching or bad connections, it ruins the experience. SBMM should NEVER exist in a game without dedicated servers.

I'm all for a combination of the two. To me matchmaking should be like building a house. You set a foundation first and then add onto it. Adding a new piece only once the base pieces are solid. Not throwing everything together at once and making a mess. The foundation of the match making system should be connection strength. I'm not saying that poor connection players shouldn't be able to play. But poor connection should match against poor connection. There is no reason 1 player with bad connection should ruin the game experience of 11 other people. Note this is Bungie's fault for making the horrible decision not to have dedicated servers. Next up are the walls of the matchmaking system...premade size. Having 6 man premades match up against 6 randoms is garbage execution of a matchmaking system. In that situation there is no chance for a fun and competitive match. Unless the premade players are garbage. Matchmaking should only match teams +/- 2 players. 6 man's should only get matched against 4 or higher. 4 man premades can match up against 2 to 6 mans. This would make for much more competitive matches. Finally once all the above is implemented and working you add in the skill factor. Connection and premade size can create a far more unbalanced, less competitive and miserable match experience. Getting killed because I got outplayed motivates me to get better. Getting killed because someone is lagging and now superman motivates me to find a new game to play.

Bump. I don't think I should be forced to not feel like a badass because Bungie purposefully doesn't want the other players to feel disappointed. honestly Bungie doesn't understand that players who put less effort and time into PvP shouldn't be hurting the higher skilled players who put more time and effort into feeling like a badass in PvP only so the lower skilled can feel like they don't suck. It really irritates me personally because before sbmm I could mercy about half the teams we ran into and rightfully so as I put more effort into being good at PvP than our opponents , but now with sbmm every other game comes down to the last kill against teams all thorn shotgunning with shade step and firebolts. Half the games I run into a person on my friends list or sweaty player I recognize (I've matched against 13 Devils, iAM, BSK, Primal, you name it). Now before you tell me stop whining because you have to try at PvP! I always try, but now I can't feel rewarded for the hard work I put in because as I get better the competition gets harder and I do worse accordingly (and to think the reward for doing better is get put down by those better than you).

I like the CBMM, I don't care if one game I go 2.0+ and the next game I go negative, it is way more enjoyable to know I got whooped by someone better versus someone I couldn't even damage or who just appeared right next to me

Simple fix to this would be have a ranked an unranked playlist. Ranked - SBMM Unranked - CBMM Give us choices and the problems will resolve themselves.

Good explanation.I am one of the unskilled pvp players,and I never understood the reason so many were whining about sbmm...and now I get it. I agree with you.I want to get better,and the cbmm has been really tough for me...but you are correct.Those guys who keep wrecking me in free for all earned their skill.Even though I enjoy getting in a match that is "even",it doesn't help me in the long run. But a choice would be most excellent.I would love to be able to choose to complete my sword quest and bounties against others of my skill level part of the time and then spend some time against the elite trying to improve my skill.

Dedicated servers can only do so much tk compensate for a bad connection. Granted its a solution for some of it but it isnt the total solution. And besides last generation consoles would have to be left behind in order to institute dedicated servers game wide plus i dont really think bungie has the money to foot the bill for them being in development for the next installment plus salaries to be paid out to employees

He poses the question :[quote] "what is the perfect win / loss ratio for high skilled players ? 60/40? 70/30? " .[/quote] But that is only assuming THEY are screwing with people natural win loss ratio. What the -blam!- does he mean perfect win/loss? That would be all wins no losses, but to them it's a number to make us adhere to and become on their behalf. You know what is the perfect win loss ratio for anyone? Whatever they can pull against random opponents.

SBMMhas no place in a game without ranked playlists, simple.

wasn't sbmm always there to an extent? I know my friends during HoW would wreck when playing solo but couldn't do shit when playing with me meanwhile when I was on their fireteams I would destroy people all my highest kills came during HoW when my fireteam was full of bad players meanwhile all my matches were sweaty as -blam!- when running solo, even though my k/d isn't even that good, but it was better than my friends. my matches have always been sweaty as -blam!- before it would match you by skill according to the fire team leader, now it looks at all players in the fireteam and averages it out

[quote]So I've been seeing a lot of posts recently about people hating SBMM, people hating CBMM, people who just don't know . The people who hate SBMM tend to be the higher skilled players, while the people who hate CBMM tend to be lower skilled . If you haven't listened to this weeks planet Destiny podcast, #57, i would recommend listening for about the first 45 minutes . Leif Johanson is on it, a Bungie developer and the main guy behind crimson doubles. He talks about the intricacies of having such a huge skill gap, and how this effects win loss ratio. He poses the question : "what is the perfect win / loss ratio for high skilled players ? 60/40? 70/30? " . The fundamental problem with designing a PvP game is that someone has to lose . Someone gets to feel badass, someone most of the time then doesn't . So should the higher skilled players be the ones who succeed more ? Should the lower skilled players lose more ? If I'm totally honest , and I think so . If you put two people into the same game won't with the same guns and the same maps, the higher skilled guy should win . Why should a higher skilled player be forced to only succeed as much a a guy who has put in half the work he has ? In what way is effectively rigging matches to achieve that perfect win/loss ratio fair ? Then you have the lower skilled player. Goes in maybe a few times at the weekend but constantly gets destroyed by people who are better . They don't [i]really [/i] care about necessarily doing great , but they want to feel badass as well. That's why they bought the game . Now , you see, when you throw lag into the mix, no one feels bad ass. People lose gunfights and games because of lag, which I know is extremely frustrating . If you want better tailored matchmaking for the best game possible, a higher chance of lag, that should be a [b]choice[/b] If you want the best connection possible , that should be a [b]choice [/b] Obviously , I'm talking about ranked playlists. Players of all skill have the choice of SBMM or CBMM, everyone wins . Oh, and dedicated servers would be nice .[/quote] All I know is lower skilled players should not be catered to to feel like they're better. Sorry

[quote]So I've been seeing a lot of posts recently about people hating SBMM, people hating CBMM, people who just don't know . The people who hate SBMM tend to be the higher skilled players, while the people who hate CBMM tend to be lower skilled . If you haven't listened to this weeks planet Destiny podcast, #57, i would recommend listening for about the first 45 minutes . Leif Johanson is on it, a Bungie developer and the main guy behind crimson doubles. He talks about the intricacies of having such a huge skill gap, and how this effects win loss ratio. He poses the question : "what is the perfect win / loss ratio for high skilled players ? 60/40? 70/30? " . The fundamental problem with designing a PvP game is that someone has to lose . Someone gets to feel badass, someone most of the time then doesn't . So should the higher skilled players be the ones who succeed more ? Should the lower skilled players lose more ? If I'm totally honest , and I think so . If you put two people into the same game won't with the same guns and the same maps, the higher skilled guy should win . Why should a higher skilled player be forced to only succeed as much a a guy who has put in half the work he has ? In what way is effectively rigging matches to achieve that perfect win/loss ratio fair ? Then you have the lower skilled player. Goes in maybe a few times at the weekend but constantly gets destroyed by people who are better . They don't [i]really [/i] care about necessarily doing great , but they want to feel badass as well. That's why they bought the game . Now , you see, when you throw lag into the mix, no one feels bad ass. People lose gunfights and games because of lag, which I know is extremely frustrating . If you want better tailored matchmaking for the best game possible, a higher chance of lag, that should be a [b]choice[/b] If you want the best connection possible , that should be a [b]choice [/b] Obviously , I'm talking about ranked playlists. Players of all skill have the choice of SBMM or CBMM, everyone wins . Oh, and dedicated servers would be nice .[/quote] Yes to everything. Bump^2

Bump

"Why should a higher skilled player be forced to only succeed as much a a guy who has put in half the work he has ? In what way is effectively rigging matches to achieve that perfect win/loss ratio fair ? " that's... not how properly working and balanced skill based matchmaking works sorry. Matches aren't "rigged", in a properly working skill based matchmaking system the EXPECTED outcome will be a 50% chance for either team to win based on the known/expected skill values of the players involved. The result of the match is then determined by which team actually plays better in the moment. That said, until they can get it working properly bungie probably SHOULD remove or at least curtail the usage of, skill based matchmaking. And no, better skilled players should not automatically get to slap down noobs. EDIT: Also, Trials probably SHOULD have SBMM instead of being purely card-based. Because at present it is pure luck whether or not you go to the lighthouse. Either you come across players who are better than you, or you don't. And since it's based on card and connection not skill, it's almost entirely random. The two times I went to the lighthouse? Didn't feel skillful, just felt lucky that we didn't come across any of the obscenely good players we have in the past.