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11/28/2015 2:39:23 AM
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Addressing the issue of Gun Control

I thought I would make a thread and talk about something now that splits a crowd. Gun Control. As we all know, the issue of guns is a hotly debated topic in America, today I thought I'd address the issue and hopefully offer a decent perspective to help to have people better understand this incredibly important issue, and what the most effective steps that can be taken to tackle the issue of gun violence. Let's start off with myself, I come from a country which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world: Australia. I know in saying that some of you may think I'm trying to say all guns should be banned and confiscated but that is not the case. Hear me out here In 1996, in response to the deadliest mass shooting in our history, the Port Arthur Massacre, the government lead by conservative Prime Minister John Howard, with practically unanimous support, passed the National Firearms Agreement, learn about it in detail here. https://www.ag.gov.au/CrimeAndCorruption/Firearms/Documents/1996%20National%20Firearms%20Agreement.pdf In the aftermath of passing this law, homicides and suicides by firearms dropped significantly, and there is no evidence that there has been any parallel increase in non-firearm related homicides or suicides. Let's gets to the main point, could the USA [i]learn[/i] from Australia and other countries? Yes, definitely. [b]BUT![/b] before you get angry I haven't finished yet. Could America adopt the Australian model? The short answer for that is [b][u]no[/u][/b] it cannot. Why? It is very complicated. I will go into better detail why the Australian (or any country with massively stricter laws) model would not work in America. I can see you asking me "if you're saying they won't work in America how could've they possibly worked in Australia?" Well, I will go into better detail now. I will first go into saying Australia and America have a roughly early similar history, in that we were founded and colonized by the British. And sadly, occupied the lands from and vastly endangered the native population. While we do share this roughly similar early history we came up very differently from the USA, while we are technically still part of the British commonwealth, we are largely independent and do not rely on the British much, if not at all. So while we were granted this amnesty peacefully, America of course had to fight for it. What I'm trying to get across is that Australia and America are vastly different cultures with different people that have developed very differently in our histories. So what does this have to do in regards to our gun laws, well the thing is, unlike America we never had a constitutional right to bear arms to begin with and don't have a 'Bill of Rights'. We also don't or ever had a massive gun industry and powerful gun lobby like the National Rifle Association (or as I like to call the National Redneck Association). All jokes aside, when the law passed, people didn't really put up much of a fight if not at all, while in America guns are culturally significant and and is split right down the middle on the issue. The laws worked in Australia because we never had these barriers and didn't have anywhere near as many guns as the USA does or a powerful industry, we basically went 'yeah alright that seems fair enough really' and went with it. So why exactly won't they work in America? Well the thing is. -There are far too many guns in America for a total ban or mandatory buyback to be effective, they'll be illegal but they won't disappear. To gather them, it would require to literally tear down houses as they can be hidden easily, that just wouldn't work. -Too many people love guns, given their cultural significance a total ban would result in massive civil unrest and could even end in civil war, just like how slavery was fought over. Prohibition didn't go well either. I understand that many people in America know about guns and respect guns, I have no doubt that most gun owners a good law-abiding people, but the thing is, the system is flawed, far too many people are getting guns easily who shouldn't have them, so what solutions are there? Well here's the best I can think of: -Extended and Universal Background Checks. Right now there are too many ways to get around the current background check system and it remains too easy to obtain a firearm. -Close the Gun show loophole. Technically a private sale loophole, this allows people to purchase a firearm from private sales without a background check. This is not a myth like some people claim, it is real, it's been proven, and is dangerous. -Assault Weapons ban. You'll still be able to exercise your right to bear arms as you always have, but military grade firearms, firearms that are clearly designed for prolonged combat and warfare, have no place on the streets. With these you'll still keep and be able to use guns like you always have and have sensible legislation. But of course there's the problem that any legislation that is suggested, people believe that they're gonna have their guns taken away from them etc. Gun Control doesn't necessarily have to mean ban guns, but the problem is that there needs to be [b][u]something[/u][/b], it doesn't even need to be a ban. [u][b]anything[/b][/u]. but I will say this, this is gonna kinda be a rant but I encourage you to listen. [b][u]Nobody[/u][/b] is coming for your guns, ever, even if the government wanted to do that they can't, for reasons I specified above, it can't happen, it is impractical. There is no 'slippery slope', there is no 'liberal conspiracy' to take away firearms, it isn't possible. The point I'm getting at is that you can continue make the same arguments as you have been for decade after decade, will you succeed? No you will not, I dare say it's inevitable that some kind of legislation will come, I mean this in a genuine way, but the fact still stands that gun violence is a problem despite what anyone says. While the Australian model wouldn't work there still needs to be something, things can't stay the way they are forever. There needs to be a give-give on both sides, there can't be laws that benefit one side more than the other and that's exactly how it is right now, the gun lobby can continue to block legislation all they want, but until there's sensible legislation the debate will never end and more people will continue to be killed because of a lack of action. I hope I offered a helpful perspective and encourage civil and genuine discussion on the subject, and hope that people would understand better and to encourage sensible legislation in shaping a better future for all.
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  • You don't understand. In America there is no middle ground when people discuss things. Everything is a false dichotomy. We either let everyone own rocket launchers, or forcibly confiscate every gun and murder everyone with ammo. Murica.

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    • [quote]-Assault Weapons ban. You'll still be able to exercise your right to bear arms as you always have, but military grade firearms, firearms that are clearly designed for prolonged combat and warfare, have no place on the streets. [/quote] I'm pretty sure people aren't firing their AR-15's and AK variants in the middle of the street.

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    • You

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    • Tldr

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    • My logic on the matter is super simple. Bad guys teabag the law. Upstanding citizens obey the law. Gun Control is passed. Which of the two groups will be handing in their guns? Which of the two groups will see their prey now as a pack of sheep rather than a pack of wolves?

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      • Edited by Chilly: 11/28/2015 1:18:49 PM
        I would suffer a thousand tragedies than give up the only thing that a tyrannical government fears. Australia was founded as a country of prisoners; it would seem they are still in chains.

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        • This is amurica its my right to be a shotgun wielding red neck

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        • Theyll just make the ammo so scarce we cant buy bullets for our guns.

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        • Edited by Fr33-StuF-pl0x: 11/28/2015 1:13:27 PM
          I'm ok with hunting rifles/shotguns and handguns, but why someone needs an assault rifle is beyond me. We have the right to bear arms to protect ourselves from the government, and it was written in a time when both citizens and the military had pretty equal firepower. If American citizens tried to start a militia because of the government becoming extremely corrupt or something, they we be absolutely demolished.

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          • "Assault weapons". In 2012, according to FBI uniform crime reports expanded data table 8 (from the FBI website) about 320-something people were killed with rifles of ANY type. And "assault rifles" are a subset of that. There were, if I remember corrrectly, about 8,500 or so murders with firearms of any sort during that year. So, just for the sake of argument. Let's ignore that my ar-15 that I paid for is my property and none of you have any right to try to take it from me. Let's ignore that I am not some criminal. Let's ignore that the second amendment is a thing. Let's ignore how many defensive gun uses are a thing, and how many of those occur at home, and how many of those must include "assault weapons" just because of how popular ar-15's and such really are these days. And, here's the kicker but let's ignore that "assault weapons" banned during the 1994-2004 ban and that would have been banned under the failed 2013 legislation were [b]no functionally different than guns not on the list but only had different cosmetic features[/b] Oh wait I almost forgot let's also ignore that the 1994-2004 assault weapons ban had no measurable effect on crime. Why are "assault weapons" so dangerous that they need to be banned. You know, why every other type of gun is ok but those. And tell me how I know anti gunners aren't going to cry and scream and piss and moan and complain about whatever guns become popular next. Kinda how like California banned a bunch of things already and people still freak out wanting bans on stuff that was made to be compliant with the existing bans. You know, the existing bans that were supposed to be limited in scope. Tell me how you're going to enforce it against the actual bad people we should be worried about and not the guy who just thinks his gun is more ergonomic with an adjustable stock. (One of the evil features) Tell me why "nobody needs an ar to defend themselves" yet all the gun experts agree they are among the best tools for the job and they are predominantly the rifles chosen for the job by law enforcement. After all its not like us mere civilians are in the same fish bowl as cops and the criminals they go after. Tell me how some guy from some other country telling America how we ought to be governed is unlike me going into McDonald's and saying "yall should stop selling fries and burgers and sell Chinese food. I like Chinese food. Civilized countries like Chinese food. I'll tell you what maybe you can sell burgers but nobody needs fries." Screw you. If you want Chinese food don't go to McDonald's and demand they change to make you happy when you have every opportunity to be somewhere else.

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            • A musket was a military grade riffel back in the revolution. If a government is able to wave a weapon in the face of it's people it is the people's right and duty to wave it back. Assault weapons don't even make up a full percentile homicides.

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            • Edited by mulldoe: 11/28/2015 10:27:33 AM
              I am an Aussie too and need to inform that you are caught up in anti gun propaganda and that the Australian gun control laws had no real effect on gun deaths. [quote]Gun-control activists claim that the Australian model directly resulted in a pronounced fall in the gun-suicide rate and the gun-homicide rate. But these claims are disputable. In August, Vox’s German Lopez wrote a piece that included a chart attempting to show a causal relationship between the Australian gun-confiscation regime and a reduction in the Australian suicide rate. “When countries reduced access to guns, they saw a drop in the number of firearm suicides,” Lopez wrote. I noted at the time that: While the chart does show a steady decline in gun-related suicides, the reduction occurred at the same time as an overall reduction in the Australian suicide rate. What’s more, firearm-related suicides had been declining in Australia for nearly ten years before the 1996 restrictions on gun ownership. Vox’s own chart does not appear to show a causal link between gun control and a reduction in suicide rates in Australia. Moreover, a look at other developed countries with very strict gun-control laws (such as Japan and South Korea) shows that the lack of guns does not lead to a reduced suicide rate. Unfortunately, people who want to kill themselves often find a way to do so — guns or no guns. Did the Australian model at least reduce gun-related homicides? That is hotly disputed. University of Melbourne researchers Wang-Sheng Lee and Sandy Suardi concluded their 2008 report on the matter with the statement, “There is little evidence to suggest that [the Australian mandatory gun-buyback program] had any significant effects on firearm homicides.” “Although gun buybacks appear to be a logical and sensible policy that helps to placate the public’s fears,” the reported continued, “the evidence so far suggests that in the Australian context, the high expenditure incurred to fund the 1996 gun buyback has not translated into any tangible reductions in terms of firearm deaths.” [/quote] Also [quote]Fact: In the US 93% of guns used in crimes are obtained illegally (i.e., not at gun stores or gun shows).[/quote] While I agree that some small changes may be ok, any changes will have a minimal effect on changing the amounts gun crime occurring. Basically, all gun control does is make it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain firearms.

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              • Edited by OurWildebeest: 11/28/2015 2:03:26 PM
                Actually, the Australian murder rate did not go down immediately after that law was put in place in 1996. It has trended down a bit overall: http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/facts/2008/figure_12.png In the same time period, the U.S. has let its "Assault Weapon Ban" expire, expanded open and concealed carry, and ... Its murder rate has plummeted: http://wmbriggs.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/hom1.jpg As always, let me add as a caveat, I am not arguing more guns = less crime, because I think there are too many social factors to prove it either way. However, there certainly is no clear data showing crime goes down when gun laws are tightened. Mass murders in Australia - no big change in frequency after 1996: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia Note that I focus only on "murders," not "gun murders". Focusing on the rate of crime with guns, vs the overall rate of crime (in this case murder), is a deception or misunderstanding commonly used by gun control advocates. Deception if they are using slippery language to exaggerate stats, misunderstanding if they think the gun is an animated creature that decides to kill people. Would you rather be killed with a hammer or knife than a gun? Dead is dead, so the stat that matters is "homicides," not "gun homicides." As for who can learn from whom - what the U.S. has done appears to have worked better than what Australia has done - but again the social factors make it hard to apply laws from one country to another and expect the same results. Since there is never evidence showing that gun control works, the argument to voters for gun control is always emotional - quick, a shooting happened, let's ban something before they switch the TV back to Oprah. The real purpose of gun control is about making government more powerful relative to the people. All governments move in this direction unless restrained. The U.S. is lucky to have a Second Amendment that makes it harder for our government to do.

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                • You sir, are the one this forum has needed. Your argument was perfect and I agree 100%. Nice job.

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                • Sounds fantastic

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                • I sincerely like this post because you are well informed and very rational. That being said, Americans are not informed and are not rational. If we're not killing cops or shooting up schools, we're in church, or we're shooting up a church. Common sense gun control is nearly impossible to pass because of Republicans and gun lobbyists.

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                  • Edited by Bolo Vic: 11/28/2015 4:35:42 AM
                    I agree with your points except for the assault weapons ban. The assault weapon gives us equal footing with the government and police. Without them, they could oppress us as a population. America is supposed to be a country run by the people, for the people. Sadly in recent history it is straying farther and farther away from that, and the need to be on equal footing is greater. EDIT: And they have started coming after our guns. Maybe it's not full scale yet, but police are starting to come after our guns with things such as "hoarding", and confiscating them for no real purpose except for the fact that they were present(plenty of examples of this happening).

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                    • I agree with some of the points, but they can't just do something sensible. Everything has to be so one sided and crazy, that it's just impossible to please everyone. The private sale loophole does need to be closed, but it'll never happen alone. It would be jammed into a massive overhaul of our nation, resulting in unrest, like you said. It sucks that our politics are so bad, we can't give one side an inch, for fear they'll run amuck with it. Guns aren't bad and neither is a little gun control, but politicians take it too far tbh.

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                    • I'd prefer gun [i]education[/i] rather than gun control.

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                      • Good post. My wife suggested that gun owners should be psychologically evaluated and pay for gun registration like we do cars.

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                      • You cover what needs to be changed for it to not be stupidly easy to obtain a fire arm or military grade fire arm which honestly shouldn't be obtainable by a civilian [spoiler]op is not a fgt[/spoiler]

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                      • You bring up very good points. America has a much different culture than other places in the world, so something that worked in the UK or Australia likely wouldn't work here.

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                      • Bump.

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