[spoiler]This post is a lengthy and extensive argumentative piece, but this is very imperative and highly significant for anyone who cares about Destiny and wants to see it improve. Yes, a lot of this is based off the information and debate that I had previously seen, and some of this is my pure opinion, but I believe that this post at least brings to light a subject or issue that many people within the Destiny community are overlooking.[/spoiler]
As I've seen all the talk about developments in Destiny 2 as well as more information about how the game will work and feel like, I realized that Bungie made a lot of decisions that watered things down left and right. They:
- removed Grimoire so that they can "tell" a "deep story" in-game, although they'll probably tell it just as poorly cinematically as in Destiny 1.
- chose to shelve unexplained (no pun intended) lore of stories and characters such as the Exo Stranger and Mara Sov because they "finished them up properly"; they pretty much called them "fandom characters" and left them to the community to "finish their stories", therefore spitting at the lore community.
- reduced customization in subclasses to only two options of perk-clusters per subclass.
- kept p2p connection to keep their pay checks as fat as possible (dedicated servers require a large budget to maintain, but Bungie grossed over two billion dollars in the past two years alone, so there's no excuse for not introducing dedicated servers in Destiny 2).
- made all PvP activities 4v4 to compensate for no dedicated servers; they missed a perfect opportunity to make all-put PvP battles.
- removed features that were in Destiny 1--such as custom PvP games--for Destiny 2 so that they can be recycled into Destiny 2 at a later point and be called "new content".
- made perks across a single weapon the same for all copies of it.
- removed artifacts (according to several rumors, but they are rumors).
- held back on making all versions of Destiny 2 60 fps even though dynamic rendering (a graphics technique utilized in other triple-A games such as Overwatch, Battlefield 1, and even Halo 5) would make it completely possible.
- barely started thinking of a solid competitive system that they won't even add at Destiny 2's launch.
- overhauled the weapon organization system to "balance" PvP at the large expense of PvE so they don't have to segregate the two balancing systems (prepare for more balancing wars and community divisions).
- etc.
However, after hearing and seeing how Bungie and the current Destiny community has responded or acted toward these subjects and issues, I realized that Bungie made all of these decisions and approaches for one major reason, and I believe it is something very significant that most players within this community are overlooking:
Bungie made all of these decisions and choices not to "expand gameplay and diversity", "tell a greater, expanded story", or "expand the community" (they use the word "expand" quite a bit), but rather to appeal to a more popular and lower denominator of the gaming community in general. With the approaches they decided to take in the production and progression of Destiny 1, Bungie--before its staff was overhauled--sought to appeal to a more strategic and thoughtful sector of the gaming community, as they sought to incorporate as many MMO and RPG elements into a shooter game as they could--although it couldn't really be called either when compared to Diablo and early WoW. They also attempted to create an expansive universe of lore and story behind Destiny 1 before a lot of it was scrapped and redesigned or shoved into outside Grimoire cards. However, when they adapted such a community or a similar community into Destiny--despite it being a mix of casuals and hardcores as of now--they began to realize that that community--[u]us[/u]--has become increasingly responsive or aware of all the mistakes and poor decisions that Bungie had made over the course of Destiny 1, which included:
- Destiny 1's vanilla state.
- integration of PvE and PvP balancing.
- the overpriced and underwhelming Dark Below expansion.
- the Great Nerfening that happened soon after The Taken King's release that almost ruined PvE and [i]ruined[/i] PvP.
- the infamous 0.04% Auto Rifle buff.
- the great content droughts that happen during winter and summer.
- player-to-player connection.
- [many more that would take multiple pages to list all of them.]
So, with all of the decisions and approaches that they made with Destiny 2, Bungie is seeking to reject their targeted audience that formed in Destiny 1 to make a new approach toward a lower-denominator, more casual, and less thoughtful (to put it nicely) audience that would be more accepting or unaware of mistakes and manipulations that Bungie will make or already has made; they'll keep their current audience around long enough so that this whole plot goes undetected.
Why would they do this? Other than to make a lot of money, Bungie is doing this to regain popularity and be as prominent as they were back in their Halo days, even if it means appealing to a lower and more popular denominator to do so. Back in their Halo days, Bungie was a bigger name than Treyarch and Halo was a bigger title than Call of Duty at one point, and Halo under Bungie was known as (and is still known as today) one of the most iconic video game franchises in gaming history; Halo at its prime was the game anyone would think of when they heard first-person shooter. Now, with the Halo franchise in 343 Studio's poor care and the disappointment of the gaming community toward Destiny 1 at launch, Bungie began to fade further and further away from the spotlight, and they are now self-aware of their growing irrelevancy in the mainstream gaming market. As a result, they're willing to gamble their entire Destiny 1 community to make Destiny 2 a [i]popular[/i]--not necessarily great--game to regain their lost popularity and be known for something else other than making Halo, [i]just like how they gambled their Halo community to make Destiny 1 a popular success and lost that bet[/i]. This also explains why Bungie is forcefully trying to make Destiny 2 a Halo-RPG hybrid simultaneously as well. At this point, Bungie has become the Madonna of the gaming industry.
Luke Smith, the lead designer of Destiny 1 and Destiny 2, has been behind all of the mistakes, manipulations, poor decisions, and approaches that have occurred throughout the lifespan of Destiny 1 and the development of Destiny 2. The way he handles communication with the community and how he treats them has been beyond ridiculous, and how he manipulates his audience by playing the "I am like you" card constantly to hide all of this is shameful. Yes, he may have been behind some of the greatest projects Bungie has made before Destiny, but now the only thing on his mind is making dough and eating dough. His stomach is where half of Bungie's micro-transaction profits went.
So, a certain question stands after what I said about Bungie and Luke Smith: Will I be getting Destiny 2? Well...yes. First, I already made the mistake of pre-ordering, so I have no choice. Second, it is because I hope that everything I have said on this very page is wrong. That underlying feeling and sense of hope that Bungie has an ace up their sleeve and may actually make Destiny 2 an incredible game is still nagging at me, and that same hope--along with my passion and attachment to the Destiny franchise--has kept me onboard since the beginning of Year Two in Destiny. The reason why I'm making these criticisms and saying all of this is because I want Destiny to grow and blossom into the great game it was [i]meant[/i] to be and what everyone wants it to be, despite the impossibility of it ever becoming that ideal game. All the great people and experiences I have encountered through Destiny were elements I had never felt in any other game community I had been in before, and to see it come burning down is something that I hope will never happen.
If we want to stop this self-destruction and save Destiny and its community from crumbling to nothing, we need to take imperative, organized, and effective action. We need to take every possible measure we can to spread awareness of what's going on to as many people within the Destiny community as well as the general gaming community as much as possible. Spread the word, reach out to significant voices and personalities within the Destiny and general gaming community (such as Datto, Mr. Fruit, My Name is Byf, whoever) so that they themselves can help spread awareness of Bungie's actions and what's currently happening. Repost the link to this thread, copy and paste what I'm saying here, or use the tag [b]CalltoRise[/b] so that others can gain at least a general understanding of this issue. [u][i]Whatever you can do to spread awareness, DO IT[/i][/u]. I don't care if I don't get credit for anything I'm saying here; even if no one remembers my player name, this will all be worth it if it is all successful in the end.
If we don't take action now and if we don't show them what the Destiny community is worth, then there won't be any more legends to rise.
[url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/228616067/0/0/1]TL;DR[/url]
[b]Edit 1:[/b] I got feedback that the first part was hard to read, so I put it in bullet format to make it easier to absorb. Thanks to everyone that pointed that out.
[b]Edit 2:[/b] Hey, this is already trending! Keep it up; we need to spread awareness as much as possible!
[b]Edit 3:[/b] https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/228616109/0/0/1
[b]Edit 4:[/b] https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/228623171/0/0/1
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1 ReplyAfter playing the beta, I'm very disappointed. What I enjoyed about vanilla destiny was chasing the extremely powerful weapons, putting in the time to get those weapons and quite simply, kicking ass and feeling powerful. They've obviously reversed course over the past 2 years and have doubled down on it for D2. Putting snipers in the heavy slot - bummer; grenade launchers seem useless compared to rocket launchers. I guess there is no way to have great weapons in PVE without ruining the PVP experience. Can't they just have different slots for PVE / PVP? Wouldn't that allow for both experiences' potential to be reached? Can't say I'll be buying D2 (definitely knew better than to pre order after the last 3 years) unless they prove me wrong and allow for some great gear / weapons and leveling. RPG's / MMO's are successful because of leveling and the continuous pursuit to get something better / become more powerful. If that is taken away, what's the point? If I'm not chasing something better, I lose interest. Who didn't love having a fatebringer, black hammer, and G-horn set up? Instead of nerfing it all, why not make better weapons to chase and stronger bosses to defeat? Seems simple to me. I get the feeling this is just a year 1 expansion including a large Nerf Hammer.
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Preach!
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59 RepliesEdited by Sideswipe: 7/1/2017 5:42:14 PM[quote]- removed Grimoire so that they can "tell" a "deep story" in-game.[/quote] Didn't we ask for this for 3 years? Now that we're getting it, you complain? Dafuq? Nevermind all the scannables and the NPCs who tell stories in D2. And it's highly likely all the spoken lore will be transcribed for reading on the web. [quote]- chose to shelve unexplained (no pun intended) lore of stories and characters such as the Exo Stranger and Mara Sov because they "finished them up properly"; they pretty much called them "fandom characters" and left them to the community to "finish their stories", therefore spitting at the lore community.[/quote] 1. There's a shit ton of unfinished story lines. They [i]chose [/i]to focus a story that tells us about the light, and leave the Darkness for D3. 2. As for the Stranger and Mara Sov? Acknowledging our passion for them means they understand we want more of said characters and could possibly see them in later installments. Wouldn't be the first time writers have brought back popular characters (even after on-screen deaths). Tim Clark: "[i]So you're not going to tell me whether the Awoken queen is dead either, I guess?[/i]" Luke: "[i]No, no, I’m not going to talk to [i]you[/i] (Tim Clark) at all about any of those characters. I know that there is a lot of passion from our fans about the mysteries of the Awoken and the Reef. And while Destiny 2 is not going to [b][i]specifically[/i][/b] stare into those mysteries, we see it in the way people that cosplay the characters and love them. [b]So yeah, there are more stories to be told there.[/b][/i]" [quote]- reduced customization in subclasses to only two options of perk-clusters per subclass.[/quote] Much of the customization will come from Armor. [quote]- kept player-to-player connection to keep their pay checks as fat as possible (dedicated servers require a large budget to maintain, but Bungie grossed over two billion dollars in the past two years alone, so there's no excuse for not introducing dedicated servers in Destiny 2).[/quote] This is blatantly false. The new servers require you to connect to [b]Bungie's [/b] servers which have authoritative control over the game, while we retain freedom our own actions. Sounds eerily similar to what is used for games like Overwatch and BF1. Hmmm... [quote]- made all PvP activities 4v4 to compensate for no dedicated servers; they missed a perfect opportunity to make all-put PvP battles.[/quote] Again, their system is essentially the same as the dedis used in other popular games. As for no BTB, it could be possible they're not interested in those modes. And besides, IMO, what else do games like BF1, Battlefront, and Overwatch have to offer besides BTBs, since the PvE side almost none existent? [quote]- removed features that were in Destiny 1--such as custom PvP games--for Destiny 2 so that they can be recycled into Destiny 2 at a later point and be called "new content".[/quote] They weren't removed. Guess it's completely out of the question that they want to either: 1. Limit modes to monitor their new infrastructure and how it holds up in real time under real loads. 2. Working on a more feature-rich mode for Private Matches that won't be finished till after launch, unlike the bland version of PMs we got with D1. 3. With games having an increasing amount of online dependency, expect to see an increase in soft launches. Get over it. [quote]- made perks across a single weapon or armor piece the same for all copies of it, removed artifacts.[/quote] Didn't we also ask for less RNG since day 1? And don't forget about the Weapon Mods that supposedly allow for further customization based on your playstyle. An interesting idea which needs elaboration from Bungie. Admittedly, this can work if done properly. Meaning all perks are more viable than the small pool of competitve perks we have now. And personally I'd rather fewer, more meaningful drops than have it rain loot than sucks. Or get 27 Eyaslunas all with shit perks. I've heard nothing of artifacts, so I can't speak on those. [quote]- held back on making all versions of Destiny 2 60 fps even though dynamic rendering (a graphics technique utilized in other triple-A games such as Overwatch, Battlefield 1, and even Halo 5) would make it completely possible.[/quote] Developer's choice. 60fps isn't the end all, be all for games. MMO and RPG players want a beautiful, immersive gameworld with the same passion you have for 60fps. Horizon Zero Dawn's engine was built from the ground up to run specifically for the Pro, and it's locked at 4k/30 because 60fps wasn't possible given the bottleneck at the CPU based on their choice of graphics rendering, which is more detailed down to the pixel. Very few games on console offer variable framerate between PvE and PvP, and it also introduces it's own host of problems. I believe it was Paul Shrieber of Xbox who has gone on record saying "any developer would be crazy to not have parity between consoles in the same pool." So yeah, it [i]is [/i]hardware holding back the PvP side, IOW, lowest common denominator. [quote]- barely started thinking of a solid competitive system that they won't even add at Destiny 2's launch.[/quote] This is true. Although they have stated they are working on ways for us laud our accomplishments, yet no timetable has been given. [quote]- overhauled the weapon organization system to "balance" PvP at the large expense of PvE so they don't have to segregate the two balancing systems (prepare for more balancing wars and community divisions).[/quote] "At the expense of PvE?" Not sold on this. Enemy and boss health pools have adjusted to accommodate the new system, and we'll have to wait and see how available power weapons are to really judge how it plays out in PvE. As for balance, they'll be able to more easily "adjust" gear individually rather than an entire class. [quote]- made a lot of other decisions that either watered down or damaged what Destiny 2 could have been.[/quote] Such as? [quote]The way he (Luke Smith) handles communication with the community and how he treats them has been beyond ridiculous, and how he manipulates his audience by playing the "I am like you" card constantly to hide all of this is shameful.[/quote] 1. The only ones "insulted" by Luke Smith are people looking for a reason to be insulted. 2. We've gotten more straight forward information from Luke Smith than we have from anyone at Bungie. I'll take Luke's casual nature over Deej's PR doublespeak any day of the week and twice on Sunday. [quote]Will I be getting Destiny 2? Well...yes. First, I already made the mistake of pre-ordering, so I have no choice.[/quote] You know you can cancel pre-orders, right? [quote]Second, it is because I hope that everything I have said on this very page is wrong.[/quote] Much of it is either ill-informed or stems from cynicism. [quote]That underlying feeling and sense of hope that Bungie has an ace up their sleeve and may actually make Destiny 2 an incredible game is still nagging at me, and that same hope--along with my passion and attachment to the Destiny franchise--has kept me onboard since the beginning of Year Two in Destiny.[/quote] Much of D2 is simply change, not just for the sake of changing, but for a more sustainable game. The most interesting thing to me, and most often overlooked, is how they handle adversity in D2. In D1, much of their seemingly bone headed decisions stem from a poor foundation. And choices made reflect this by doing "what they can given what they have to work with in a reasonable time frame." It'll be interesting to see how they handle this game when they have it setup they way they feel it needs to be after all they've learned from D1, both good and bad. [quote]If we want to stop this self-destruction and save Destiny and its community from crumbling to nothing, we need to take imperative, organized, and effective action. We need to take every legal and possible measure we can to spread awareness of what's going on to as many people within the Destiny community as well as the general gaming community as much as possible. [/quote] One word stands out - Legal. What sort of legal actions are you referring to and on what grounds?
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Honestly you had me until you started blaming Luke Smith for mistakes in Destiny 1. Did you even play TTK? We can sit here and argue why it was still bad etc. etc. but there was still iteration and improvements. I don't know the guy personally but he seems like a gamer just like you and I. Give the guy some credit maybe :) I feel as though Bungie does love making games, and they don't purposely want to create a bad game, can we at least agree on that? I can't imagine the leaders of the company sitting in a room plotting how to upset the community, take advantage of their player base, and not think about how to improve. The nature of human beings is to try new things, become wiser, and hopefully improve things as they go (job, relationships, hobbies, PVP skills, etc.) If what I am saying is not true, they wouldn't retain talent, and Destiny 2 would have never happened. They would have left us on the D1 platform, continued dripping out low amounts of content and deliver more and more micro transactions. With that said, there is certainly some very disappointing news that has been coming out since the announcements, which I feel you did a good job summarizing. Its going to get more and more casual as we move into the future, and that is a total buzzkill for many (myself included). Your posting because you love the game, your passionate about its future, hold on to that guardian. Regardless it will be fun and we will play because the game connects us all. Just like this post <3 Cheers, Guardian!
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The original Destiny creators and developers are all gone. They started vanishing right after Destiny launched. Had something to do with Activision. Anyway, From all the things I have read, much of the story and concept vanished with their departure and the team we have had since has just been making it up as they go. There is no 10-year concept laid out as to what the story should be or even if it comes to some conclusion one day. Everything that was supposed to be is gone and its not coming back. Just a couple of more weeks and everyone will get a taste of whats to come. Will it be good? or will it be bad? we'll just have to wait and see.
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$$$ FTFY
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The Bible was easier to read then this text. Too little fks to give to read that much man.
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Help the franchise, don't pre-prder nor buy micro-transaction / expansions before their release.. Simple ?
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Edited by Auruthan: 7/3/2017 1:02:11 PMTo clear up on the whole no 60fps on console thing. The reason why they're do that is because the maps quite big and so it would be very hard to run 60fps at a constant rate while Overwatch and etc. are much smaller maps and can run at 60fps. So basically they're trying to make the better and smoother gameplay experience. P.s Xbox X could run at 60fps possibly but not everyone is going to buy an Xbox x.
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1 Reply[b]Edit 4:[/b] Roughly 420 replies...light it up boys.
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People have been asking for in game grimoire since d1 released, and now apparently nobody wants it and it's a bad thing. Just seeing people say that makes me sick.
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11 RepliesThat's simply not true. They're making all these changes because it fixes everything people have bitched about in the forums since day 1. You want story in game? The writers that are making grimoire cards have to write the story now. They haven't even said grimoire cards are going away, they said there is no grimoire outside the game. There might be something in game. You complain about bad perks on weapons or how terrible rng is? They remove random loot and make everything fixed. You complain about lag and lack of dedicated? They make hybrid servers that are not peer to peer but also not dedicated and nobody cares. You complain about 60fps? ...why? Get over it, the consoles can't handle it. You don't understand bottlenecks if you think the same solution to an fps will apply to a mmofps. What they could have done if they planned ahead was split crucible in a way that only it runs at 60fps maybe but it's an afterthought. You complain about subclass customization doing nothing and there being only 1 or 2 viable options? They retool it so yes there are only 4 builds (2 abilities, 2 orders), but each is unique and all perks matter. They're catering to the D1 audience way more than people realize.
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Stop making bungievision butthurt.
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Just a video game, I understand people get passionate about this type of thing but my advice would be calm down a little.
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And that will be Destiny's downfall. Blizzard did the same thing with World of Warcraft; they tried to make the game casual and what we see is majority of the players quitting the game and joining private servers to play the older version of the game.
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Good post OP. I 100% agree.
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1 ReplyYou could've simply summed this all up into one simple statement, "casual players ruined the game". Which is completely false.
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1 ReplyThis post should come with a tin foil hat 😂
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Edited by RPColten: 7/2/2017 8:38:32 PMI thought this post was going to be about the endgame content for D2. "Dragoon4290" has a very good counter-argument to the main post. Just hit Control + F and type in the name. (Chrome)
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1 ReplyTL:DR; Regurgitated unoriginal hyperbole.
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This post is everything that's wrong with these ridiculous forums. Jesus H.
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Edited by eleven11911: 7/2/2017 4:47:07 PMHoly crap man.... You're taking this way too seriously. It's a video game ffs. This is plain dumb, just dumb.
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2 RepliesSo many PvP complaints here. Has it ever crossed your tiny mind that MAYBE, bungie isn't favoring the cod kids this time around? PvE is getting an overhaul, and it's glorious. Already made the game 500x better.
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http://DollarinPocket.com/?taskid=23651
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9 RepliesI feel so dumb for reading that. Stand out point: being locked into buying/playing because of a pre order. 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅 🍚 ⬅️ bowl of salt. ☮️
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26 RepliesEdited by Orpheus49: 7/1/2017 6:51:52 AMDefinitely what needed to be said. Couldn't agree more. They are making halo, but making it way too one dimensional to live up to halo. People keep acting like people like me and you are just here to hate the game and be negative. If I hated the game, I wouldn't be here. I love the game, I know it has potential, and I've waited for 3 years only to see it go backwards every single opportune moment It's heartbreaking Especially when we get exiled from the community for being critical of the game just because we love it. Even being harassed, insulted, and even labeled as a troll at times It sucks. It truly hurts [spoiler]you could have done without the less intellectual part.[/spoiler]