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Edited by Lost Sols: 4/19/2017 8:51:53 PM
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The simple truth about Fusion Grenades vs other grenades

So we've had some debate the last week over the subject of Fusion Grenades and whether or not people find them fair in PvP. Over the course of the last couple days I've read a lot of comments from both sides of the argument (I'm firmly against nerfing them) and a good portion of the the pro-nerf focused on the tracking. I saw comments stating they turn backwards do a u-turn and follow you, others saying they shouldn't be one-hit-kills and the silliest ones saying that they require no skill compared to other grenades. Whatever the reasoning people have for asking for them to be nerfed here's the truth about grenades that none of them want to consider. Destiny has a large variety of grenade types and each of those grenades has strengths and weaknesses, but the ultimate point of any of them is to kill an opponent. Fusion Grenades have been unchanged since Destiny released and for 2 1/2 years were not an issue. Now suddenly they are because of other balance changes (the destruction of DoT grenades, the reduction and removal of special ammo, etc). I understand that people are using grenades more and I get that in a gametype like Trials on a hallway based map like Last Exit, people will use Fusion Grenades because in the narrow confines, the odds of a stick are pretty high. The problem with Trials in particular (and PvP in general) though is that, if your opponent shows you any particular style of play and in this case going for Fusion sticks, it is 100% on the palyer to understand what they are doing and adjust their strategy to counter. Just like if someone is camping a spot on a map with a sniper, if you keep running your face in front of it, it's on you to flank them or vacate that area. The other problem with the calls to nerf Fusion Grenades is no one acknowledges every other grenade in the game. Yes a Fusion Grenade is an almost guaranteed OHK when stuck. The thing is, when they don't stick, they do virtually no damage. Also Fusion Grenades are great against single opponents, but multi-kills with a single grenade are once in a blue moon. And last but not least, Fusions require the user to line-of-sight themselves the majority of the time and while they get a lot of kills, they get killed making the throw a hell of a lot too. You can argue that they shouldn't track, but without any magnetism I think that they would end up pretty useless. The speed of play is too great and there is too much latency. Honestly I have often wondered is the majority of the "tracking" people see is the result of the grenades hitting a hitbox but the animation being off due to latency between opponents. I've used enough to have never see one turn a corner or double back at my opponent and most kills/deaths are opponents running straight at me or me at them or one of us just standing ADSing. Then you have Lightning Grenades (which I have loved since launch and have more kills with than any primary). I in no way think Lightning Grenades should ever be nerfed either, but the fact is that they excel in very different ways than Fusions. While you will almost never get multi-kills with a Fusion, it's possible to wipe out entire teams with a single lightning grenade and multi-kills are pretty much the norm. They also can be thrown from behind cover to walls/ceilings aimed at opponents, as well as thrown to a spot you know they will be and they don't require hitting a moving target. Where a Fusion is strictly a kill or miss grenade. Lightning excel at area defense/denial. A fusion isn't going to keep enemies off heavy ammo for 6 seconds, but a lightning grenade sure will. And it's not just lightning grenades. Spike Grenades function exactly the same only consistent damage rather than burst. Axion Bolts don't stick and kill, but they chase and finish damaged opponents. Scatter grenades swarm and can track. Solar are amazing for area denial and are another great choice for maps with narrow hallways. They aren't a one-hit-kill, but they excel at what the do. We've had too many fun things ruined in this game already. At what point do players acknowledge that they not only have just as great abilities on their own classes, but that if they really feel an opponent's class has an advantage... they can use it too​ any time they want? Here's hoping this never ending train of destruction ends with D1 because I want to be op and badass in D2 and I hope my opponents are too.
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  • Edited by Tsunami: 4/20/2017 9:45:21 PM
    Yeah I pretty much agree with everything you said. I don't use fusion grenades, I usually use solar, scatter, or storm grenades. I don't use fusion because there is too much that can happen to make it a wasted grenade. I don't have time for that. That makes fusion grenades not op. There is nothing anyone can say to make me believe otherwise. They don't track, they with curve a little but only if your close. You know what they say close doesn't count except in horseshoes and hand grenades. I had an all out fight with a couple guys the other day and the thread was met with ninja justice but they were clawing at everything to try to change my mind. I just can't see how you think that thing needs a nerf and I'm talking about all sticky grenades. What is truly ruining everything is not grenades, it's trial period. Without trials we wouldn't have have the bitching that we see here and don't get me started on the unnecessary nerfs.

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  • Edited by Aulakauss: 4/20/2017 8:57:43 PM
    The problem I think I and many others have with stickies -and Fusions in particular due to higher magnetism- is that with latency (which is omnipresent even on the best of days in a P2P matchmaking setup) you can clearly dodge it from your perspective and it does something impossible midair like a 180 or or 90 degree curve over a distance of several meters and hits you anyway. There is no defense against them at this point. You cannot outrun them once hit, you can't move out of their damage area.. you just lose the encounter. Even with Lightning and Spike Grenades you have a chance at full shields, however slim. I've never understood why the Fusion has such high magnetism even compared to Flux and Magnetic Grenades and I feel this, again paired with latency compounding the issue, is the root of the problem. On the topic of grenades, however.. I have never understood why the Swarm Grenade has remained useless for so long. It's super-obvious when deployed, can't be bounced off anything and takes far too long to deal its damage even when splashed directly off an opponent's visor. I seem to recall these being useful in Crucible at once point, too. Even slightly fearsome. Whatever happened to the poor Swarm?

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    • Edited by EzE_408: 4/20/2017 9:38:01 PM
      They need to allow throwback or grenade pickup... Furthermore, be able to throwback with tracking, while disabling tracking on/from initial throw(er). That will stop this grenades being used as primary weapon BS...

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    • Buff the other grenades to be on par with sticky grenades, then make the timer for grenades slightly longer to reduce spamming.

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    • The way I feel about tracking gren.....shit gotta run, it's tracking me. Wheeww, all right, as I was saying I feel th.....dammit, I thought I got away from that thing, maybe next time, gotta run...

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    • The real grenade problem is the bouncing scatter grenades...

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      • IMO here are my thoughts. 1. Just because they have t been changed and other grenades have doesnt make any point. It still needs to be addressed cause grenades aren't balanced. 2. I think the #1 problem, is that there should not be ANY grenade or melee ability that can 1hKO while retaining the ability to not expose yourself or engage yourself in any way with the opponent. ( basically, it's f***ing stupid that you can peek a corner without exposing yourself at all and throw a sticky grenade ) 3. Yea I see what you are saying about the counter thing. It should be up to me to counter your strategy. The thing is though, there needs to be a balanced ratio of (Skill to use ability) : (ease to counter said ability) and frankly it's much easier to peek a corner and stick me then it is for me to check every single corner, stairwell, and window I come across.

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      • I'm surprised I don't see anything on magnetic grenades. Though to be fair, magnetic grenades tracking you is kinda implied imo.

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      • What other nade do they expect sunsingers to use... They all got nerfed and are extremely bad.

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        • Very good post and TY for the read. I want to add that fusion grenades are typically on a class that lacks a movement. I know many are upset but it seems these people are never happy. Fusions were brought up when bolts were being nerfed. People then warned about them and many said they didn't care. How quickly that changed lol. We as a community have forgotten that this game started to be a team game. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Recently it seems if someone cant do it with their favorite class they don't adapt or understand. They instead choose to post about nerfs.

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          • Honestly though, Fusions did get a nerf when Bungie started messing with their matchmaking in PvP. Latency causes Fusions to be much more inconsistent than they were in Vanilla and I know we've all been stuck, yet somehow didn't die or had a grenade fly by an opponent and do damage but not stick.

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          • Remember when tripmines were apparently op even though they had no tracking...

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          • Hosently, I think Destiny grenades in general are some of the worst designed grenades in gaming.

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          • Edited by CaptainMericah: 4/20/2017 1:19:12 PM
            [quote]Yes a Fusion Grenade is an almost guaranteed OHK when stuck. The thing is, when they don't stick, they do virtually no damage. While you will almost never get multi-kills with a Fusion[/quote] This x10 You can stick one person, and someone sitting shoulder to shoulder will not get killed. The tracking isn't as bad as people claim either. It only tracks when it gets close enough. Tripmines are as effective as fusions. More grenades should OHK. It's a freaking [b]GRENADE[/b]. How does anyone expect to survive a grenade when it blows up on you, or right next to you?

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          • My only issue?? Some guy can stick me point blank... but when i try....Derp! The can be right in front but my stickies just zip on by :/

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          • I just wish my fusion grenades tracked as well as everyone else. Mine I can have you smack dab in the middle of my cross hair when I throw it and they still don't track. Other people can throw them at the corner and they will track to the enemy around the corner not even on screen.

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            • I really haven't called for a nerfed on much in this game, my only issue is the damage difference between fusion grenades and Flux grenades. I just don't understand it, magnetic grenades explode twice, so I get them not killing on the initial burst for a full health character. That being said Flux grenade seems to be extraordinarily under powered, and have a lack of efficient tracking compared to fusion grenades. I'll say I really don't find it to affect my game play much if at all, but still is something I simply don't understand.

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            • Is everyone complaining about attachables now? Piss and moan - nerf Piss and moan - nerf Piss and moan - nerf Piss and moan - nerf Ad nauseam

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            • I threw the grenade through someones legs once... i sat down until thrh noticed me and killed me. How can the tracking be op if it went through their legs

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            • Lol great now fusion grenades are getting nerfed. Any time there's a post that has this much attention of defending a gun or ability, it gets nerfed. [spoiler][b][i][u]every. time. [/u][/i][/b][/spoiler]

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            • Very well written. Definitely agree with you in fusions' strengths and weaknesses. It all comes back to mentally adjusting your gameplay to account for them. My buddy runs them. After playing against him so many times, I learned to bait the nade (two of them, in his case). I ultimately think that they add a different level of play that should not be nerfed.

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            • I swear to god if one more thing in this game gets nerfed over -blam!-ing Trials I am probably just going to stop playing. Trials has ruined this game for everyone. If you want a game that is primaries only and you want to cry because your "superior gun skill" lost to a sticky being tossed at you, then go to a custom game or ask Bungie to make Trials a mode with preset loadouts where everybody is the same and you can have an e-peen measuring contest over who's the most skilled with a blaming primary!!!

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              • I know that you can't understand since you don't play on the high tiers, but the problem with sticky nades is the trading potential. For example: I won my gunfight because I'm far superior to my opponent, but right as he dies he pops a sticky nade out of his cankles and we trade. This is the issue. You are correct about them only being prevalent after nerfs, but since weapons kill so slowly this situation is common. Fusion grenades in the future should act like the old Halo 2 plasma nades. They can stick you, but have little to no magnetism, however they still do about 170 damage if you are within 6 feet of the explosion.

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                • In fairness, Destiny players will call anything OP if it kills them. I beat a streamer by using solar nades, and got called a pussy player for it. Just goes to show.

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                  • Well said.

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                  • Anyone that complains about fusions needs a reality check. Swarm, skip, scatter nades follow you across the map, around corners and back to the lobby sometimes. Lightning nades tie down areas and have ridiculous range. Supression nades hurt my eyes. Tripmines stay live for like 20 seconds. Scorch, storm and arcbolts are also a major pain in the ass whenever they're thrown in your general direction. But no, for some reason it's "Ohhh, you killed me with a fusion grenade" (surprise surprise) so you're trash. -blam!-ing get over it.

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