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Edited by Lost Sols: 4/19/2017 8:51:53 PM
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The simple truth about Fusion Grenades vs other grenades

So we've had some debate the last week over the subject of Fusion Grenades and whether or not people find them fair in PvP. Over the course of the last couple days I've read a lot of comments from both sides of the argument (I'm firmly against nerfing them) and a good portion of the the pro-nerf focused on the tracking. I saw comments stating they turn backwards do a u-turn and follow you, others saying they shouldn't be one-hit-kills and the silliest ones saying that they require no skill compared to other grenades. Whatever the reasoning people have for asking for them to be nerfed here's the truth about grenades that none of them want to consider. Destiny has a large variety of grenade types and each of those grenades has strengths and weaknesses, but the ultimate point of any of them is to kill an opponent. Fusion Grenades have been unchanged since Destiny released and for 2 1/2 years were not an issue. Now suddenly they are because of other balance changes (the destruction of DoT grenades, the reduction and removal of special ammo, etc). I understand that people are using grenades more and I get that in a gametype like Trials on a hallway based map like Last Exit, people will use Fusion Grenades because in the narrow confines, the odds of a stick are pretty high. The problem with Trials in particular (and PvP in general) though is that, if your opponent shows you any particular style of play and in this case going for Fusion sticks, it is 100% on the palyer to understand what they are doing and adjust their strategy to counter. Just like if someone is camping a spot on a map with a sniper, if you keep running your face in front of it, it's on you to flank them or vacate that area. The other problem with the calls to nerf Fusion Grenades is no one acknowledges every other grenade in the game. Yes a Fusion Grenade is an almost guaranteed OHK when stuck. The thing is, when they don't stick, they do virtually no damage. Also Fusion Grenades are great against single opponents, but multi-kills with a single grenade are once in a blue moon. And last but not least, Fusions require the user to line-of-sight themselves the majority of the time and while they get a lot of kills, they get killed making the throw a hell of a lot too. You can argue that they shouldn't track, but without any magnetism I think that they would end up pretty useless. The speed of play is too great and there is too much latency. Honestly I have often wondered is the majority of the "tracking" people see is the result of the grenades hitting a hitbox but the animation being off due to latency between opponents. I've used enough to have never see one turn a corner or double back at my opponent and most kills/deaths are opponents running straight at me or me at them or one of us just standing ADSing. Then you have Lightning Grenades (which I have loved since launch and have more kills with than any primary). I in no way think Lightning Grenades should ever be nerfed either, but the fact is that they excel in very different ways than Fusions. While you will almost never get multi-kills with a Fusion, it's possible to wipe out entire teams with a single lightning grenade and multi-kills are pretty much the norm. They also can be thrown from behind cover to walls/ceilings aimed at opponents, as well as thrown to a spot you know they will be and they don't require hitting a moving target. Where a Fusion is strictly a kill or miss grenade. Lightning excel at area defense/denial. A fusion isn't going to keep enemies off heavy ammo for 6 seconds, but a lightning grenade sure will. And it's not just lightning grenades. Spike Grenades function exactly the same only consistent damage rather than burst. Axion Bolts don't stick and kill, but they chase and finish damaged opponents. Scatter grenades swarm and can track. Solar are amazing for area denial and are another great choice for maps with narrow hallways. They aren't a one-hit-kill, but they excel at what the do. We've had too many fun things ruined in this game already. At what point do players acknowledge that they not only have just as great abilities on their own classes, but that if they really feel an opponent's class has an advantage... they can use it too​ any time they want? Here's hoping this never ending train of destruction ends with D1 because I want to be op and badass in D2 and I hope my opponents are too.
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  • Only people I've ever seen defend fusions no matter how well thought out and logical the argument... are people that use fusions... turn off the magnetism make it how trip mines used to be and I don't have a problem with it. You shouldn't win a rumble game with more fusion kills than primary kills which I've seen on multiple occasions lately, especially if I demolish you in 1 v 1 gun fights... its not so bad in 6s or 3s but in rumble against multiple fusion spammers it can be remarkably frustrating, and in elimination its down right negligent for bungie to allow that...

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    • Edited by Knight: 4/23/2017 3:16:11 AM
      I do agree about some of what you said but some grenades are completely useless. Lightning grenades just like tripmines are meant to stick to a wall, etc. But the fact that tripmines almost never kill bascially destroys the point in using them. Why use a tripmine when you can use a fusion? These nerfs have created this problem. Bungie needs to start thinking about the entire game instead of one game mode, Trials.

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    • The majority of the time when players stick you its the only thing on their mind, meaning they aren't shooting at you. You usually get a bit of damage away before the inevitable. You die and they escape with low health. Don't accept your death! Run at them and finish them off with their own grenade, it is possible! It's not an easy thing to do but it is a little victory. Also has anybody heard the noise of being stuck by a nade but then it doesn't explode?

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      • Primaries need to be buffed. In this current meta, you're at a disadvantage if you try to use a primary over a sticky. At least if they were buffed, then you'd actually lose a gun fight whenever you try to crutch on them (not you specifically).

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      • 2 words: Very Simple

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      • Edited by Synge_X: 4/20/2017 8:36:47 PM
        What I'm going to say is coming from a position of pro balance but not pro nerf... I believe, that as long as we are moving towards a game where weapons, abilities, and grenades are all viable(in relation to each other), I'm willing to accept changes, even if those changes hurt my own play style. However, I don't support changes that have no statistical back-up, and are purely emotionally driven. I believe this to be the case with both stickies and sidearms at the moment. The game is hands down, more balanced at this point, and honestly has been since the Clever Dragon/matador meta. Time to kill, effective range, special vs primary, and class vs class are all more balanced in the actual experience of playing, and are backed up statistically. The recent, as well as current "metas" pale in comparison to metas of the past, where certain guns wavered around 35% to 75% usage in comparison to other guns. During HOW, Thorn and TLW's combined usage numbers alone accounted for more than half the kills in the game(these were numbers given to us directly from Bungie). The fact that stickies are designed to "Kill" is definitely the simple truth about stickies, but the truth about this community is more complex... Here's a good example: the MIDA is the most used gun right now(despite the numbers being more perPortunate than in the past), and the distribution of numbers are no where near what is presented by the community... so why then, if the distribution of guns is demonstrably more even, are people still complaining about the meta? Well, I have the answer for why people still complain about our current, weak meta: 1. They are trials players: there is, and always has been a very limited selection of weapons being used in trials. It doesn't matter if God himself, or some master God like artificial intelligence balanced the game perfectly, there would still be at meta-in trials. This is not hard to understand, for these people, even if it is speculation, they don't want to take any chances about what weapons are going to give them an edge in going to flawless. 2. They primarily play 3V3 modes, and have a decent kill to death ratio/ELO. At this point you might as well be playing trials, most of these people are using these modes to practice for trials anyways. 3. They are a politically driven, forum ideologue. In an effort to illustrate the negative impact of changes/nerfs, they complain that the new meta is worse. Behind the position that nothing should've ever been changed, they unknowingly feed more metrics for future changes. 4. They are below average players who have enjoyed the benefit of edged out metas past(not necessarily to win the majority of engagements, but to even be able to compete period). These players want to be able to pull up a YouTube video and have a content creator tell them the exact weapon/roll/class combo they will need to compete... recently it was the wormwood. To many of these player's surprise, picking up the vendor roll wormwood didn't provide them the same level of success as OHK weapons like Matador, or 1K stare(where you could get that lucky drag or a one hit kill trade). 5. They are a traditional, dyed in the wool complainer. Anything that kills them is OP. ANYTHING! I recently played with a player who complained incessantly about necrochasm... I mean... seriously. 7. They are unhappy about the new special economy and how much it has changed the crucible. These players are still struggling with concept that Bungie has been making changes since year 1. They simply refuse to adapt, and will be the first to blame others for not adapting(and complaining, which is exactly what they are doing day in and day out on these forums). Side arms are a new force to deal with... and players haven't adapted to using or fighting them. Is my opinion that the current meta, from my own experience, and my analysis of the data, is largely perception. Unfortunately, the environment where for whatever reason, the community feels that they can change the game based on their own emotional experiences, is a creation of Bungie. If stickies are changed in any way, it won't be for any reason other than the "salty 7" I mentioned, raising hell on the forums.

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        • I always used fusion nades as a last FU if you beat me in a gunfight. I find it funny.

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        • The truth is that nobody likes getting OHK'd when they were planning on having an actual fight. That's why nobody ever curses shotguns or snipers or fusions when they themselves are actively trying to use one, because they know the fight will be decided on the first shot. But when you round a corner, see a dude, start trying to 3-tap him and he spits out a Fusion and floofs away you're pissed because a) your hopes for a fun gunfight were just shattered, and b) that -blam!-er just got lucky, regardless of how much skill it already took. This isn't just my opinion. It's documented somewhere.

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          • Edited by RadiantVoid31: 4/21/2017 9:08:54 AM
            The grenades are perfectly fine. If I die to a Fusion grenade then +1 to the other Guardian for getting me. Clearly, I was the doofus who stood in their way. People, stop crying and just hit that respawn button. Or just go to Orbit. Great post on grenades.

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            • There have been several times when my fusion nade kinda bounces off my target.

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              • and this is why pvp should have no endgame tied to it, let alone rewards. especially without a tier system. i think the major issue in the destiny community it that they cannot handle one hit kill loadouts.

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              • you have several great points here 1. is the tracking an issue with latency or the grenade? we just don't really know but, it seems that if there is more latency in a match, those fusions have a nasty habit of tracking like a coon hound far more than they do in a match with little to no latency 2. Strategy/tactic - many players play the same no matter the subclass or character they are running and that just isn't going to work well.. the grenades are different as you well pointed out and therefore you need to treat each differently. before people never tossed grenades, now they are used more, is this really a bad thing? people have learned how to chain supers, does that mean we need to nerf them or does it mean that team needs to react to the situation better? people are finally using primaries alot.. should we nerf them too (the answer is no nerfs if you were wondering) Players have overall gotten better at playing and understanding the game. Annoying perhaps to get stuck with grenades from the 3 warlocks on the other team but, they certainly don't deserve any nerfs.. face those warlocks, take your medicine and move on to the next target.

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                • I disagree. They do need to see a reduction in tracking, and that wouldn't make them useless. OHK weapons, other than Icebreaker, are now pretty rare in more competitive game modes such as trials. Anything that can OHK is still going to be incredibly valuable, especially because it's perpetually recharging. As it stands, stickies cannot do U-turns, but they can stick around corners. They should be what Tripmines were before their nerf.

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                  • You are delusional, fusion grenades have always been a problem and this current shit meta only promotes them further. They are no skill, AA, tracking easy buttons. In fact they had to buff the other sticky grenades to make them comparable to the blatantly OP solar version. And they nerf Tripmine... WTF!!!

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                    • It's fair because it is in the game. I hate pvp. But when I play, I love just running around and doing the last second sticky grenade to their face. Postmortem.

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                    • "Simple Truth" *Posts book* Come on, Sols! lol

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                    • Edited by Unforgiven: 4/21/2017 4:20:22 PM
                      I agree. Stickies are too strong and too easy to use. They should miss on occasion but it feels like they always hit the mark. I made a post so they buff Bladedancers. I mainly play Warlock but Bladedancers are so weak now the game is imbalanced. My post also talks about similar issues as this post, current game is ruled by Warlocks. Bladedancer need a buff to bring them in line with other Storm/Arc builds. Like for like please sols https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/225649374/0/0

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                    • You know your playerbase is just getting picky and spoiled when they start complaining about fusion grenades. You know who used to complain when I used them? People who didn't understand that you can use cover and corners to win a gunfight. Idiots. All of them

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                      • It just feels so weird to me to see so many posts about how horrible it is to face people using fusion grenades. When I run some Crucible matches I seldom run into people using them and when I get stuck by one they kind of earned it. If someone misses me when I'm like right in front of them then that person has worse problems than I. And I'm not very good. I'm guessing this is mainly just a problem in Trials? I don't usually play that because I already said that I wasn't very good and I have too much pride (and too little money) to ask for a carry. Though all this talk about those grenades are making curious about checking them out. I haven't used Fusion grenades in a long time but I sort hated using them. I guess I could try it... for science!

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                        • To the sniper comment not true especially in open areas where you have multiple routes to get that sniper back but they still snipe you when you go around the corner or snipe then switch to primary to kill you it's ridiculous that why you have to camp to get kills with crutchbreaker why to protect your precious kd that doesn't matter. Same with grenades I know from experience they are satisfying as help but when you get the same person not using there ammo an just sticky grenades it's ridiculous. 20 times I got stickied by the same guy a piece of shit titan who should have fusion grenades just because bungie was to lazy to come up with a new grenade for sunbreakers. So as much as they are satisfying to use cause there a garentied kill there a pain to those who only use them an don't use anything else.

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                        • Personally, i have always hated stickies and have wanted them nerfed/changed since year 1, the tracking on them is dumb.

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                        • There's nothing fun about them. Especially in elimination. Getting a guy 1 shot and they chuck a sticky grenade out in a pathetic attempt at a trade. The titan who comes skating at you with the sole purpose of trying to chuck a sticky at you. The warlock running double sticks and a NLB that only peeks corners for a second to try and pick you with the NLB or toss a lucky fusion at you. Just have some dignity and get in to a proper gun fight, God damn.

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                          • [i]I like your break down. Without the tracking, they're garbage. The AoE damage is like a flick to the ear if missed. There's no "territorial" advantage to them like the lightning or spike grenade. There's no "burn" like an incendiary grenade. If the tracking was turned down, there'd be absolutely no reason to use them. Then, onto the next grenade that needs nerfing. When I die to a sticky grenade, it's almost always my fault for being in that doorway or hallway for way too long. I deserve the death.[/i]

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                            • Ive hated all sticky nades since year 1 & Ive always viewed them as the cheapest/easiest nades to use.

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                              • Edited by JimmyTheHand: 4/20/2017 1:00:38 PM
                                Hey Sols, you got my thoughts in the podcast comment but just for clarification from my standpoint. Fusions aren't the problem. 90% of the Crucible using fusions is. It's fine to say adjust your strategy against the guardian who is using them but what do I do when that's their whole team. Do I have to be the meta and put an auto rifle down and go for a hand cannon for every single game? That's not fun to me, but then again neither is taking stickies to the face...... that kinda came out wrong. Look don't nerf it, but at least give me a Memory of Saladin which means that [b]sticky grenades do base 170 damage[/b], meaning you can survive it. Also for clarification, since the AoT update all sticky grenades kill, even getting stuck by a magnetic while Titan skating on 12 armor. I honestly have truly never understood why they are the definitive ohk grenade, especially after Memory of Silimar came into play. By your own explanation all grenades have a usage right. Usually area denial or follow up. Why would the grenade that is impossible to shake be the OHK. I have literally had people pop from around cover, throw it blind and stick someone because three guardians were relatively close together. How do you even shoot them in that instance never mind kill (and no I'm not a hard scoper). I truly believe that everything should have a counter and stickies do not. Memory of Saladin and then it's an option as to the protection you can get from the types of grenade that kill you. Again it's not the stickies that got better, it's the percentage of Guardians using them. PS never witnessed the absurd tracking of Fusions you say? Feast your eyes good sir https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ftHp-ScWE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVFaBquprmc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQNWQP4MCS8

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                                • When sticky grenades become meta then you have seriously -blam!-ed up your sandbox. I thought this was supposed to be a first-person [b]shooter[/b].

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