So I've been seeing a lot of "casuals are ruining (insert activity) in Destiny" takes again the last week or two and then yesterday I saw the latest Forbes article from Tassi on the subject and think it's time to point out a few things.
To start, for anyone who didn't read it, I'm not linking it, look out up if you want, but the gist of it was whether or not Destiny is being catered too much towards "casuals" (and he chose to say "again"), as well as bringing up a tweet thread by Gladd complaining about the same thing and how the game needs to be more hardcore because poor Gladd isn't able to make enough content.
This pile is deep.
I'm going to start with wondering why a Forbes writer is posting a tale of woe about a dude who is one of the raunchiest members of the community and the streamer equivalent of a 90's shock-jock radio host, with content about violating himself with hamsters and posting from his Summit visit about swinging his junk in his hotel window.
Real classy dude that totally we should feel bad the game is too easy for him.
But beyond that, the whole "casual" as a slur garbage is the gaming equivalent of classism and grade school indoctrination into right wing hate culture. Playing a game for a living doesn't make anyone more "hard core" or more of a "gamer" than someone who can only play when life lets them throughout the week and this constant use of "casuals" to demean and dismiss, as well as blame all the game's "problems" is a load of crap.
Then there's the fact that, I don't know about anyone else, but I know I'm tired of listening to the Gladds and Gothalions of the community always ripping "casuals", the game and Bungie the second everything isn't 100% about them when the high profile influencers have driven the lion's share of development feedback the last 4 years.
The game that exists today is massively a product of their criticisms and complaints and it's garbage that they pretend that they're not culpable for where things stand.
So let's backtrack -again-, because it seems like history gets rewritten a lot.
Destiny 1 was a great game, but one that Bungie felt needed a fresh start and a new game for D2 and despite all the negative takes that piled on after the first month of vanilla D2, it did get a lot right, starting with investment. It was a game that allowed players to come and go and not feel left behind, and also allowed us to play multiple characters with ease and constantly change not only characters, but loadouts and play styles.
It also had true endgame difficulty content that was deeply challenging with prestige difficulty raids and a sandbox that made content much more challenging overall than we have now.
Certainly the game was not perfect, and both PvP and PvE needed to be better overall, but there was a really good foundation there that ultimately never got a chance to hit it's stride because a month in, all the big name content creators and high level PvP players went completely toxic on the game and started all the "dead game" crap and making anti-Destiny/Bungie content because it got easy likes and views.
So let's look at where the game is today with the complaints about not enough or drip-fed content, and underwhelming exotic quests and look back at what that massive backlash led to, which was the studio basically stopping development on a lot of future content and moving essentially the entire studio to making massive changes and rebooting a game that was itself a reboot.
The massive changes to the sandbox, leveling, investment, economy, etc came at a cost. Instead of building onto what existed and adding more weapons, armor, strikes, missions, etc, resources went to the reboot; and certainly there was still the content that had already been started and was in the pipeline with Gambit, Warmind and Forsaken, but there's no doubt that the deeper we got into year 2, the more we caught up to the effects of diverted resources year 1.
Then we had year 2 itself which was the baby of all that hate and toxicity from the "hard core" and influencer crowd. It was ultra punishing in leveling, in investment, in grinding, in RNG and in PvP as well with the high profile PvP influencers pressuring Bungie into removing skill from matchmaking.
And all the big names patted themselves on the back because they had "saved Destiny". Until around Season of the Drifter when everyone else checked out of PvE and PvP because we couldn't take it anymore and wanted a game, not another job.
Oh, and another casualty of overall lack of development resources in year 2 was hard mode raids. I could be wrong, but I would be shocked if the decision to go with one difficulty wasn't affected by trying to catch up elsewhere.
So then what happened?
Bungie not only had to use more resources to once more make big changes to PvP, investment, economy, armor, etc, but they also split with Activision due to friction from the way year 2 devolved.
So here we are in year 3 and Bungie have tried to keep the content structure that the community and the big names have said they like with seasonal content and new things every few weeks/months.
We've also seen new arena after new arena instead of strikes and updates to older content like planet vendors, because this was also feedback that was given on what the "community" wanted more of.
So here we are in year 3 with Bungie still playing catch-up and trying to get to the point where they can just build forward without constantly having to backtrack and reboot and it's not surprising that content is light at this point when you look at the big picture and how much development time was lost that could/should have been more new content we're getting now instead of what was spent on rebuilding then.
Does anyone believe that Bungie doesn't want factions back in the game? The fact that we have nothing yet regarding them speaks volumes to how big a game of catch-up Bungie is playing, and certainly that is on the decision makers at the studio as well, and there have been calls that missed the mark, but there's also still been a lot of good and at some point the studio needs to say this is the game we believe in and stick to their vision.
The game isn't too "casual". It certainly could use more legitimate endgame, but that doesn't mean the game shouldn't be accessible, and even the raids that exist are now leveling content vs true endgame because of the worlds first races. So once more content that could be more challenging that isn't has nothing to do with "casual" players and everything to do with the high profile players.
The game needs a lot, but at this point what it needs is new weapons and armor, new strikes, factions, more actual story, etc, and hard modes for existing content like raids. What it doesn't need is Paul Tassi, Gladd, Gothalion or other big names pressuring Bungie into once more making infrastructure changes to make the game more "hard core".
We literally went through this with vanilla D2 into Forsaken and I honestly can't believe we're seeing the same garbage now. Crapping on regular players to make the game better for content creators didn't work the first time, let's not keep making the same mistakes.
The game can have content for those players without sacrificing everyone else and if players are willing to take a deep breath and give Bungie time to just build forward, I think we'll see a game that everyone can be happy with and love.
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I agree with much of what you’ve said here, however I don’t think D2 vanilla was good at all and in many ways, was an answer to those who complained the loudest about special weapons/heavy weapons/abilities/etc. ruining pvp. The 4v4 concept was introduced as a way to improve stability in matches and reduce lag. None of these things worked and heft the game feeling flat and un-fun for both PvE and PvP. I don’t think they swung too hard the other way in some ways with Forsaken, and players like me who only played a few nights a week had no hope of keeping up. I feel like Y3 is more of the same but with the addition of FOMO and lack of deeply invested story content. So much so that I’ve stopped playing. It sucks. I miss this game fir what I thought it was and what it could have been.
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I'll keep on saying this and I stand by it. These streamers are the worst that could've happened to this game. Some of these individuals will complain because they're solely looking out for themselves because since Destiny is one of the ways that they make a living out of they want this game to cater to them, so they can keep making content to put out. Of course they'll try their hardest and since they have a following and are supposed to speak for the entire community Bungie has bend the knee quite often. Bungie has to start making changes, good changes for everyone. We all play this game regardless how we feel about it. This game isn't just for Streamers. Bungie has got to turn this game around and keep doing the game they want. Also, these Bungie "summit meetings with these individuals" have got to stop. Nothing good comes out of these because every single person that goes to these IMO is giving them what they want to see to feed their streaming career.
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2 RepliesYou lost me at politics and saying D2 Y1 did anything right. Keep politics out of video games. Period. We all get too much of that crap everywhere else we dont need it here. As far as D2 Y1, it was the worst state in Destiny History. I had all the exotics in 2 weeks, story took 2 days, and there were fixed rolls on every gun. After a month or 2, some people literally had EVERYTHING this game had to offer. That's bad. That's NOT Destiny
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5 RepliesCasuals aren't regular players, casuals are the gaming equivalent to someone who goes to the gym for selfies and then goes home
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This ain’t it chief.
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Edited by X_GamesMode: 1/10/2020 9:16:20 PMDon’t really even care about the novel you just wrote, looked at your name and noticed you were one of the big old bungo fanboys that posts this sort of crap all the time😂, time to focus your writing abilities into books mate, good or bad you seem to just spew words, such a talent 🤣 👍🏻
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1 ReplyYou made a mistake. It's not the right wing that is the "hate culture", but the "left wing". You're welcome for the correction.
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[spoiler]I'm TRIGGERED!!!! [/spoiler]
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3 Replies"Casual" is not a -blam!-ing slur. Just wanna make that clear to anyone who doesn't understand. IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE AT ALL AND SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS SUCH. If you think that's a slur get off the internet IMMEDIATELY. My god.
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Hey man, this is a solid piece. The content creator crowd definitely shares some of the blame when it comes to everything you outlined. I think the key sentence in your post is this one: ".....at some point the studio needs to say this is the game we believe in and stick to their vision." Bungie needs to stop trying to please all players. Trial and error has taught us and should show them that nothing will please everyone. Keep the core gunplay strong, expand the loot pools in fun ways, simplify and streamline the ecomonies, and just make more Destiny stories. Pay lip service to the content creators and the forums and keep going. Personally, I will be along for the ride regardless.
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Want a good PvE? Well, that's why borderlands 3, warframe and mhw. Do you want a good pvp? Well, that's why Halo, Call of duty modern warfare and counter strike. Let's leave Bungie with her star streamers and let's go to where the fun really is ........... by the way you can buy all the games that she mentions for much less than the objects of the eververse store are worth
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Edited by Malygos: 1/10/2020 7:58:18 PMLol the game has turned into log in do daily task that takes 5 minutes get shit reward it's exactly like a mobile game designed for the most casual but by all means on steam every day is a new low peak player count and I'm sure the overall game if you wanna go down with the casual ship go right on ahead
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Someone who just got the game for 0$ should not have a voice that carries the same weight as those of us who have been here since D1 beta. Those of us that have had to put up with this game going downhill and have actual good ideas to improve it. But instead, all the proper ideas and helpful critique drowns in the vast sea of casual tears; tears from people who want nerfs, and complain about having to do any amount of Crucible for a quest step. That is the state of the Destiny community. I don't mean to sound condescending, but anyone that doesn't agree is either blind, or lying to themselves. It's the harshest truth that no one wants to accept.
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TLDR I saw an article saying casuals bad because Gladd complained once. ------------------------------------------------------------ Catering to casuals has been the second biggest problem for D2. The first has been the insane rise of eververse. Third is probs reskins, but lets be honest, they reskin D1 because the game was fun and a lot of D2 isn't. The most recent and notorious example of catering to casuals is Devil's Ruin. Do 2 things that provide no challenge in the slightest and you get an exotic. AND you matchmake in the first thing which can also NOT BE FAILED just to be safe. This quest has been the safest casual friendly quest I've ever seen and I'm disgusted. Is the game becoming too focused on casuals? Seeing as how ritual weapons are insanely easy to get and the new devils ruin quest, yes the game is too focused on casuals. But the main issue on the game is that it's not fun. All it is is grind for some stuff that's slightly better than the stuff they gave you for ez. The only thing that feels fun nowadays is master lvl activities or maybe a raid from time to time.
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Yes. Casuals make Bungie the most money that's why they make the game boring and easy. Casuals ruin games. Thank God capcom works hard to make a good game like MHW for hardcore players.
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It also isn’t because of “streamers”
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[quote]Until around Season of the Drifter when everyone else checked out of PvE and PvP because we couldn't take it anymore and wanted a game, not another job.[/quote] You checked out and so you are supposed to be respected more than the people who didn't? I don't get this new way of thinking. It is people that think they are going to throw all their toys on the ground and pout and not participate that are -blam!-ing the game up.
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I wonder if you put this much effort into school essays and research papers.
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I’m just gonna say thank you. This is all the things I’ve wanted to say but couldn’t. I hung it up two months ago, and still miss the game I enjoyed. This is not that game anymore. I just don’t have the desire to log in and play limited content for unrewarding loot (both in power and playability). They’ve made the grind so hard it and the game so boring it just isn’t worth it. Thank you again.
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7 RepliesYou have some very valid points and I like how you challenge the insults as casual isn’t really an insult. The thing I miss most is D1 raids, you had that one relic guy and the damage was meant to be split up between the relic dude and the team. Now we have elitist [i]Lords of Sweat[/i] who have grinded countless hours for a select role on a sniper rifle and grenade launcher and if you don’t have those you aren’t “good”. No dipshit I have a life and I prefer to spend some time on here and some time with my friends and family in real life. It’s worse than the [b]MuSt HaVe GjAlLaRhOrN[/b] meta in D1. And to top it off the damn revive token system doesn’t allow for any new people to be taught a raid. We all know that guy who can’t seem to quit dying but let’s be honest everyone does to some wonky ass physics here and there, or to snipers that someone else didn’t kill. The point is there is no room for teaching new players how to raid which was one of my absolute favorite things to do in D1.
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2 RepliesMost of this is another "I hate streamers" rant Y1 D2 was considered a flop by the majority. Not just streamers driving a narrative. It was simply bad. The only complaints that come to mind for Y2 were enhancment cores. Bungie are the ones that removed factions, trials and other things and never bothered reinstating them, the community has asked for it along with vendor refreshes and new strikes but that would require some effort on bungies part, so just like the seasons getting only 1 new piece of content in Y3 (vex offensive, sundial) compared to 3 pieces of content in Y2 (gambit prime, reckoning, zero hour) bungie believe they can get away with dropping less and less but changing the same amount. It's up to the community to tell them otherwise.
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2 RepliesLook guys. This guy hates streamers. We should too and ignore any opinions about the game being too easy for the people who actually play it.
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I mean the fact the survival “bug” where it’ll spawn all 3 just to not “frustrate” players exist is proof enough that the game has been made for casuals...
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Thanks Lost Sols, Good post👍 man.
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1 ReplyI agree the game doesn’t need to be hardcore. It’s just in a very weird place - everything is pretty easy right now, but most quests and new content involve just grinding way more than before. So that’s not what I’d expect casuals want because of the time investment involved. D1 had a definite magic about it D2 just doesn’t have. Some of it could be down to better loot, higher difficulty, or the game just being newer...but right now I just don’t feel compelled to play in the same way as I used to. However, I do agree that Bungie should NOT cater to streamers demands.
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8 RepliesEdited by Spooky_Ari: 1/10/2020 5:58:25 PMThe game is balanced. It isn't focused on casuals or hardcore players, just hobbiests. Some aspects are difficult and some are not, the problem with difficult tasks is that it should be limited to loot rewards and not story elements. Story elements are there for world building, and if you lock that behind difficult activites you're block that portion of your playerbase from enjoying the game in it's entirety. This is where New Light went wrong. This also goes for forced PvP quest steps for progression, this goes for Raids not having a Story mode, this goes for activites being too easy and repetitive where they hold next to no value. Power is supposed to represent value, but the more serious players breeze through that anyway, and say "What's next? This is boring." We can't have Pinnacles anymore because it created a problem, with regular loot values and the overall experience of gameplay. We can't have Competitive Crucible anymore because of how P2P networking works, and on top of that had such grossly over used weapons that they became staples in PvE, which then created the gatekeeper problem because PvE players going against PvP players for the same rewards, but with a more difficult journey because they had to face already good players with the better weapons that they were trying to get to begin with. Iron Banner, a free weekly seasonal event for everyone, replaces Competitive Crucible with it's competitive status with being locked out of rewards until you meet a certain standard. Then the rewards were kept the same, and we just lost our accessibility to make the loot seem "prestigious". This is the problem with "difficulty" in this game. People say they want difficult, but it ends up being annoying and tedious. We need to have both, and not have it be interlaced into each other. We need to be able to choose the level of difficulty, and the quality of our rewards. We need to have options, and this game lacks that.