Thorn is rarely a 2 shot kill and if it is (I've never seen it) it requires Head shots, (it's a cheese gun because of the burn, 3 hits and you can let the burn do the rest) TLW as well, if your not getting head shots then your not getting the enemy killed fast enough and stand a good chance of losing the gunfight. [spoiler]point is PvP is all about who can score the critical hits, if your not getting head shots and your opponent is then your going to lose no matter what gun your using[/spoiler]

Hawkmoon kills you in 2 shots as well. In your logic, shotguns must be removed completely. Crucible may not be balanced, that doesn't mean moat used guns are OP. People use it, only because ARs got a heavy nerf and reased from Crucible. They take too long to kill in comparison with other guns, impacts aren't so good by nature which doesn't disorient the player you are shooting at, range completely sucks. Pulse rifles are in almost equal terms with HC's as RoF faster with decent impact and range. HCs always will have lowest TTK by nature. Considering the logic in OP, shotguns kills you in one shot. If you have fellwinter's lie, then that one shot doesn't have to be point blank range anymore. FYI , my load out is 90 percent of the time as follows in crucible; Hawkawesome, Sniper rifle (could be any number of them) Harm's Way or Jolder's Hammer. On occasions, i try new guns to get used as it takes quite a bit of time for me to change my play style. I have tried Red Death, Hard Light, TLW(can't get used to low impact HCs), Thorn (Hawkmoon is better imo), Necrochasm (for fun), Vanquisher III and Suros but nerf was really heavy on AR.

I don't think they are OP because I have both of them and still do poorly when I use them. I consider a gun OP when even a scrub like me can do well with them. Since that it's the case i don't think they are op.

Time on Target, Three Little Words, Red Death, Ghileons Demise, and Hawkmoon can kill in 2 headshots as well. Nerfing isnt the answer. I run Thorn, Last Word, Vex Mythoclast, or Red Death every game. The problem is the lack of a skill based matchmaking and lag. I will do good with any weapon I have put it to the test by running green and blue primaries and I still finish at the top of the leaderboard. Thorn is very hard to use under fire, most kills with a thorn are from blind siding people, in that situation you will die by any gun.

Thorn: remove "send it" upgrade, reduce mag size to 6 TLW: fix range. fix perk dassit rip SUROS

This spreadsheet I'm linking below has been posted here a few times. It shows the damage output and fire rate of every gun in destiny PvP. There are several guns, including a couple of rare weapons with a faster TTK. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/tTMPEAOhYplzPIA4B07pBhQ/htmlview?pli=1

[quote] Longer TTK is better gunplay and more fun in most people's opinion[/quote] You said this in response to someone saying "Buff the other weapons". Destiny's average TTK is about where I like it. Fast enough to where if I get the jump on someone, they will go down. Slow enough to where if I'm quick, I can disengage a gunfight. A long TTK will result in the following: •More assist •Less kills •Shotguns and fusion rifles will rule (and there's no real way to Nerf them without destroying them at this point) •Heavy ammo will be even [i]more[/i] tide changing •Easy disengagement from a firefight The TTK needs to be balanced and it is now, with some weapons being either too far left or right from the standard deviation. Auto rifles for example, are too far left. They don't kill in a reasonable amount of time. Not even SUROS Regime, the once feared weapon, is now nothing more than a novelty. Handcannons and pulse rifles are right to the standard deviation. But not so right that they are an unfair advantage. Only Thorn fits that category, not TLW. TLW's fan fire is balanced by its rather low mag size. It's great stability is countered by its poor range, which actually is a factor when you get into the longer side of mid range. It's impact is one of the lowest of all handcannons. The fact is, unless the TLW user is skilled or you lack skill, he will kill you at ranges that you think it shouldn't. And if you find yourself saying that "It shouldn't kill me from that range" you've made a tactical error that resulted in your death. If anything, just fix the glitch where it does 101/111 damage. Thorn needs adjusting. No two ways about it. It has no weaknesses of any sort. It's perks can be adjusted to where it has the range of a scout rifle or its stability can be adjusted to where it's effective at close ranges. Two headshots for a kill [b]is[/b] unfair. Now I'm not suggesting we do anything rash like take out perfect balance. Just reduce the burn to 4. This will make its TTK closer to the standard deviation, instead of being in its own deviation by itself. Conclusion: •TTK is fine, buff auto rifles. Slightly buff scouts •Leave TLW alone, fix the glitch if it's actually a glitch and not a hidden perk •Reduce Thorn's burn from 7 to 4. This small change will go a long way. All it will do is eliminating its two headshot ability, which no other primary exotic can do.

First off they are op. But it takes decent aim(unlike all u spraying auto rifle users) and timing ur shots to use them. And thorn isn't easy to come by. 2 shots to the head with thorn and let dot kill yes ... But u still have to shoot someone on the head .... Not just hold down the trigger and move to head (again auto rifle) Tlw will definitly not kill anyone with two shots to the head , (idk who you are trying to fool kid) It's a good weapon ... But honestly lol the least op handcannon ...: that gun by far takes decent skill to kill really fast .... And I mean FAST because yes u can die within about 1.5 secs which has happened to me . And I can gaurentee you they didn't do it 15 times in a row by accident .... Instead of being a whiny kid about it, try some other tactics . Use a different gun(aka your auto rifle )

the fact that those who bitch about thorn/tlw never mention hawkmoon makes me wonder are all the bitches crying are on xbone (the consoles kids play on) or are they royally f*cked in the head? hawkmoon is the most broken weapon (for pvp) in this game since it was released. this shit was more powerful and killed faster than old suros (not as broken as the original vex mytho, tho) so wtf?

They r just overused Not op

TLW 2 shot kill? Wtf?

[quote]TLW: 2 shot kill[/quote] Only in your dreams.

You are a dumb ass to you think both of those guys are a two shot kill your over exaggerating boy

Thorn has been nerfed. Now shut up.