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Edited by illuzian:
9/20/2017 7:24:44 AM
316
The raid should need coordination but not perfection
After spending a significant chunk of my weekend completing the raid with various PUGs, and putting aside the pitiful reward and the abundance of glitches and bugs I'm feeling quite salty.
I absolutely agree that a "normal" difficulty raid should include some difficulty and coordination, but it shouldn't require perfection from multiple people at once or insane revive mechanics.
Calus' shadow room for example, requires 3 people - half the raid group to coordinate perfectly, if you're unlucky to get an overly keen Psion spawn and shoot you up in the air - that's a wipe, something that should be required only for hard mode.
The hub room is also tedious, no checkpoints is a bit of a joke and having to navigate the sewers is just as grating.
The death tokens+timers make it exceptionally unforgiving - again something that should be reserved for hard mode.
The difficulty, tedium, and perfection required is insane - I can't imagine what the hard mode raid will require. Probably 10 Psions in shadow realm, even beefier adds, more adds, 50 different phases and all while needing to cure cancer and solve the worlds geopolitcal issues...
The raid needs to be more forgiving - if the intention was to make the raid more accessible, it most definitely isn't. There's no way someone who hasn't previously raided (50% or something according to Bungie) will enjoy it or be easily pulled through.
It probably would even be enjoyable if it wasn't for the insane expectations on people to perform an exacting repetetive task. All this while coordinating it with others with a plethora of bugs and glitches making it even more tedious.
EDIT: To the people predictably saying it's endgame content and should require perfection - it should require a level of skill, coordination, and ability but it shouldn't be unrecoverable if 1 of 3 people die or make a mistake - I mean the shadow realm has a lot of stuff going on in it for those 3 people to focus on, all while throne room has a lot of adds. In addition - there's a plethora of bugs that can cause wipes which is amplified by the number of people that can seriously screw up the run.
If the raid needs to require perfection - what's the point of hard mode and challenge modes then? Surely you can stroke your epeen by doing those as opposed to having the expectation that everyone has a team of 6 with equal skill, comprehension and ability.
This mechanic driven raid has a lot of things to multitask (shadow realm) and a huge amount of coordination - if you have a friend who might be casual and dies a lot you're certainly not pulling him through - he's leaving.
The whole point of this raid was for it to be more accessible according to Bungie, in that they undoubtably failed. Bungie wants 100% of people to clear this raid but with the trophy percentage (2.7% or something on PSN) that's not going to happen.
Shameful plug: If you're able to play in the AU/NZ timezone and are one PS4 feel free to check out Noise Marines: https://www.bungie.net/en/ClanV2?groupid=1257423 might make the raid easier
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The raid is really easy once you know what you’re doing. I’ve done it over 30 times and know the mechanics well; most of the things people are complaining about aren’t even valid and don’t need to change. The only glitch they need to fix is the one where people don’t all spawn in when someone switches armor. People complain about going through the barriers in void, but really they are just hitting a ramp. A good leader on dogs can consistently get a good modifier without being unfairly spotted. I think saying the raid needs “perfection” is ridiculous considering people have defeated prestige calus with only 2 players, and a team I was recently with that I found on lfg killed calus first try with only telesto.
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I actually like this raid a lot for the same reason you don't like it, specifically the fact that you can't pull a dead weight through. The mechanics aren't hard to understand - whoever is a first timer just needs to have 100% focus.
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Completed in 1hr 30min last night with breaks. I love this raid because there is no carrying, everyone has to pull their own weight. Our clan raids all the time, check us out if you need help.
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[quote]I can't imagine what the hard mode raid will require. Probably 10 Psions in shadow realm, even beefier adds, more adds, 50 different phases and all while needing to cure cancer and solve the worlds geopolitcal issues...[/quote] Comment of the Century. Thats the main reason i haven't even attempted the raid after my inital run through. It just feels like hardmode.
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3 RepliesI'm gonna have to agree with everyone here. It's like every other RPG raid from essentially every other game. Make the hard mode for the people who no life the game, and do the massive grind required to make perfection happen. Reward those players appropriately etc. The normal mode should be able to be completed by players with some forgiveness, to allow also the community to help those who would rather struggle get better... I mean -blam!- you could solo ashes in WoW or even carry the -blam!- out of people in other raids in D1 because you're skill gap... here that's not possible.
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It's not really that hard. The most difficult part is the fact Calus is so damn buggy in the other dimension. Barriers disappear, never appear at all, symbols don't show on his forehead, etc.
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Would've thought a common sense fun easy to do interesting raid would've been the first one for D2 and newbies. This one just does the whole opposite effect of making newbies want to stay
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I really don't care about rewards or difficulty. It's easy to find a good unforgiving fireteam that boots you on the first mistake you do. I finished the raid with a team like that, but where is the fun? I like to play with my "casual" friends but I couldn't finish the raid with them. It's hard to fix other people's mistakes in this raid unlike destiny 1's raids.
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I agree with you. Because these raids have become well, challenges, not raids, people throw fits, complain, kick, white and ruin the ability to do these. Getting a raid group together has always been a pain in the ass. I've only ever done one raid, The Taken raid back in D1, because either people complained because on my FIRST attempt, i couldnt get it, WITHOUT PEOPLE TELLING ME, helping me, or ya know, telling me what to expect in the next room, i got kicked. I got kicked if someone had a higher light level, even if i was already in the group, or wouldn't be allowed into the raid, BECAUSE I DIDNT' HAVE RAID GEAR. Yall hardcore raiders ruin these things for those of us who just want to actually play the game and have fun. And from what i'm hearing, this is the hardest raid/mechanic's yet. So yeah, i agree with you. A raid is a group of people RAIDING a boss/castle etc...last i checked, that involves explosions, killing, stealing and the likes, dont remember vikings ever stopping outside the gate to a village, to solve a puzzle while arrows rained down over them. Their key was a battering ram, if that. Knights? ram, ladders, explosives, just saying, they either need to stop calling it a raid, or make it into a raid. I myself, would LOVE a straight up beat em up, hack and smash, entrance into an enemy strong hold. Save teh challenges for...i know ima get this wrong, trials of osiris? was taht the pve challenge round in D1?
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5 Repliesif we have to be perfect to complete the raid then the raid should work perfectly. dogs spotting people behind walls isn't perfect, casually just sliding over the barrier in the shadow realm isn't perfect. why do we need to be perfect when bungie isn't? good post.
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89 RepliesThanks for the feedback. We value your honest impressions. I'll send your notes to the raid team and we will continue to monitor player feedback as groups become more experienced with the raid the next few weeks. There will always be a fine balance between making end game content challenging for those who like difficult encounters while still allowing it to be accessible to anyone brave enough to face it.
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I gotta chime in here. Long time raider, mythic in wow and all D1 excluding last raid (got bored). I picked up destiny 2 on xbox to plag with friends and family. There is absolutly no way I can take my 57 y/o dad through this. It is way too unforgiving. You need to get rid of the resurection tokens and death wipe timer on normal. I feel this will allow people (casuals) a fighting chance.
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That's a lot of salt. I can teach you. And there are many like me. I (finally) finished last night. Only one character. But dammit, I know every room like the back of my hand now. Other than throne room duty (I spent ALOT of time in the void realm) I could walk anyone through it. All of these raids are like a dance. Once you learn the steps, and you have the right tools, you can perform the dance. It may not be pretty, and you probably won't get a call back for the Vegas show, but really, learn the steps. Use supers. There is no more self rez, so supers should be popping left and right. Make orbs for one another. Work as a team. And as with all raids, HAVE A MIC!! COMMUNICATE. Profit. I get that not everyone will be able to raid with a good natured fella like me, but we ARE out there. One of my favorite things to do in this game is to take people through the raids, and help them hone their skills in them. I miss the old days of "I GOT A GJALLARHORN, BITCHES!!! YES!!!" But I'll take what I can get. Where do adds spawn? Should I use my shotgun? Is tether good here? Where are the holes in the void realm in the second round? All that stuff needs to be simplified and properly conveyed. We were ALL new to it less than a week ago. One week! Sometimes you just need to wipe a couple of times to learn it, even if YOU don't need to. And once it is learned, it cannot be unlearned, and the community is better for it. [i]"All that I see can't be taken from me." -Phish[/i]
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although ive seen some bugs, most people always claim to have died for some unknown issue or other BS, when in reality they just make mistakes and cant commit to their fault. For example when in the pleasure gardens my team kept on wiping because "dogs were being alarmed because of a bug" when i could clearly see my teammate being an idiot, rushing and getting caught. I am well aware of some real bugs but after ten tries only about 1 time it was because a buggy element but mostly clear encounters if done the right way.
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2 RepliesHad no problem with a lfg group, I usually get stuck on the final boss of a raid in week 1 of it being out and complete fully in week 2 but this raid was done the first week it was out. The only thing I found was that it was quite time consuming (took us 7 hours) but that will reduce week by week I imagine. Mechanics are pretty simple, all you need to do is listen to each other and do what your teammates say. If you can speak and listen then you can do this raid, simple as.
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2 RepliesThere's no bugs or glitches. Receive tokens are fine. Hard mode you can't revive.are you new to destiny?
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1 ReplyEdited by EventHorizon_16: 9/20/2017 1:53:36 AMIt is a bit too unforgiving. In a lot of the raids so far, you could finish that part down a man. Not possible in this one. I also don't care for the one revive thing. That would be cool for hard mode, but I don't care for it in normal mode. Overall, I do like the raid and thing it's one of their best. I just wish it was a touch easier/more forgiving.
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2 RepliesI really feel the same way. I got out of 2 gauntlet cp because the teams were basically making things harder for the team to finish the second pt of the raid this week by having the teams of three method instead of the stationary method I think my team came up with.
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4 RepliesEdited by DreadTribe: 9/19/2017 11:35:45 AMWhy don't they want us to shoot bad guys anymore? I don't want to sneak like a stupid coward Hunter, that's not how Titans roll. Royal Baths are the best designed part because the gimmicks don't overpower the gameplay. Less gimmicks, more killing bad guys, that's what we want. Not relay races where you have to rely on your teammates to [i]hopefully[/i] know how to aim, not horrid and glitchy RNG stealth sections, not a boss fight that causes a wipe if one person dies, more straightforward mechanics. VoG was great, Crota was pretty short but good, King's Fall was pretty gimmicky but Warpriest wasn't too gimmick reliant and the raid overall was fun except for Golgoroth who required Black Spindle, and WotM I'm a little biased towards because I love the weapons and armor and enemies and generally everything, but even from an objective standpoint, the few gimmicks that existed weren't overbearing, the challenge came from communicating properly, but also just doing your job, you know, making good callouts and making sure nothing in the room would see the light of day again. In the Leviathan, the mess that it is...you fight one boss...and he's not fun, and it's because he's gimmicky...so I'll say it again. [u][b][i]FEWER GIMMICKS, MORE SHOOTING BAD GUYS![/i][/b][/u]
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Edited by Simmons the Red: 9/20/2017 1:35:57 AMThere is little room for error when at Calus, heck if someone dies in the void then its "welp, lets take a guess at what the next one is". Don't get wrong the raid has its fun moments, its just unforgiving mechanic wise, which for fighting against Cabal I honestly would have thought we'd have more bosses to just generally fight. Also that whole, finish a section, go back to the plaza and unlock the next door isn't fun, just tedious.
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Edited by Jack over Ice: 9/19/2017 11:36:25 PMCouldn't agree with you more. The rewards are a joke, you can get more running Public Events in a fraction of the time and with less tedium!
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1 ReplyIt's good to know there are a bunch of other people who feel this raid is so perfection based Bungie forgot to make it fun. I don't have all the free time in the world, and I feel like I wasted 13 hours of what could have been good times instead trying to beat a raid where Bungie took such pleasure in "look at our mechanics" to remember that not everyone is a hardcore YouTuber/streamer/whatever. Let them have the Prestige mode. I don't care. But after what I experienced in this raid, I am supremely disappointed. Not even King's Fall was this bad, and I really disliked playing that raid. How the four variations of group I tried raiding with from my clan got to Calus is beyond me. We lucked out in the Pleasure Gardens, otherwise I would have quit then and there. To be blunt, the OP is right. The raid requires too much perfection. It was fun when the mechanics could be figured out and completed with a solid effort. I enjoyed the Bathouse area and the Gauntlet. But the Pleasure Gardens and Calus fight were so brutally unforgiving. I believe we were a solid group. Everyone was patient and gave their best. I could have asked for nothing more from them. Here's a breakdown of the time I spent in the raid, and I'll be conservative: Friday: 3 hours, completed Bathouse, got to attempted Gardens several times. Stopped. Saturday: 4 hours, completed Gardens, Gauntlet, got to Calus, after several attempts, stopped. Sunday: 2 hours on Calus. Monday: 3 hours on Calus, called it quits. I've rambled, I've raged, I've vented.
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I quit playing the raid on my first run. I never quit on any D1 raid, yet this Leviathan raid is just so bad, I couldn't go on and finish it. A friend of mine asked for help on the boss and I helped him out to get the platinum throphy, but I didn't get to complete the "raid quest". I've seen some further quest steps which involve playing the raid more and I don't even want to get the exotic anymore because of this horribly designed raid. I don't like ANYTHING about it. When you spawn in for the first time it looks good. It truly feels like you're about to face the emperor. But then the first encounter starts and you're like: "When are we done? We're just shooting random Cabal soldiers for no reason other than that we have to wait for the other Cabal guy to spawn." Then you get a different encounter and back you go, towards the Cabal spawn of boringness. I could rant on but I'm keeping it short: At what point should I get excited while playing the Destiny 2 Leviathan raid?
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There is a lot of room for error in this raid, a lot. I am puzzled on how people can struggle with this raid, I did it this morning 3 times with 3 different randoms from LFG, it took us around 1 h to complete. If I remember correctly I didnt even wiped once. That's after the raid has been on for 1 week... this has never happened to me before and I have several hundred raid clears in D1. People need to man up and stop complaining, practice more, try to understand the mechanics and you will see how easy this is and it does not require perfection at all.
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I agree. The normal raid should take some difficulty, but shouldn't require perfection. Destiny 1 raids weren't that way, and it worked pretty well for getting people used to a raid. In Destiny 2... You can rarely recover from a darkness zone anywhere in the raid. Like, how is it supposed to help less experienced people? And for gods sake, if the normal is so unforgiving now, what about prestige?
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2 RepliesTBH, this raid looks crota level easy to me. The only hiccups I can see are from the same people who would shoot non-tracking rockets at crota or pick up the relic in VoG without knowing what it does over and over. Unfortunately I haven't been able to play with my console in the shop. Can't wait for the pleasure gardens, honestly looks like the only real challenge!
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