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Edited by MCGIVOR:
1/12/2017 3:29:02 PM
42
New Trials matchmaking, why it won't work
Today I'll be explaining why Trials of Osiris cannot introduce a different matchmaking system. Some examples are putting in place a new tier system for guardians that have gone flawless, creating a skill based match making system and only allowing the 2kd/2000 elo players play against eachother.
Let's start up with some numbers and statistics first. Using the Guardian website, I was able to determine a lot of things.( only using the xbox trials of Osiris ranks) ( all percentages have been rounded and only have a small margin of error )
2000elo+: 2543 players (0.05%)
Diamond tier: 14901 players(3%)
(1700+)
Platinum tier: 31,913 players(7%)
(1500+)
Gold, Silver & Bronze tier: 420,697 players(90%)
Total players : 467,511 players
Also using destiny trials report, I am able to determine that within the last couple of months, only 15% of the total player base was achieving flawless on their characters. Now unfortunately I don't know if there statistics also includes players going on multiple accounts ect. For sake of argument let's just assume that 15% of the total player base playing trials of Osiris are reaching the lighthouse at least once a weekend.
So your probably wondering what all this means, and I'll be getting to that point shortly. There's a rule in the real world and its called the 80/20 rule. It was first used to describe that 80% of the income(money) in Italy was being received by 20% of the Italian population. This has been proved and is used widely for business, economics, you name it. 20% of the activities you do create 80% of your happiness. It's a very weird phenomenon but this is completely accurate.
So what does this have to do with trials and matchmaking?
First let's talk about the main problem. The community wants the lighthouse to be a lot more easier to achieve, which is exactly why most want a new matchmaking system. When we introduce a new bracket where only flawless guardians play other flawless guardians were essentially creating a whole new pile of problems.
Theoretically almost everyone will be able to get to the lighthouse with this method. Everyone is happy and loving destiny. For the short term.
With this method we've created a system that's easily attainable. The Lighthouse, emblem, scarab, and the loot that come from Trials of Osiris will not have the same value as before. Trials of Osiris will be an obsolete game very fast with this method . People keep playing this game type because of the challenging nature it has and making it less challenging is not the solution.
I also see that people post 'why don't we introduce new rewards and emblems on the new system for the guardians that have been flawless to entice them". Unfortunately with this system, everyone is happy in the short term, because now we've created the exact same problem. The community will all get to the lighthouse, and get the same rewards and the same emblems, but not the "new rewards and emblems" which is essentially what everyone will want anyways.
There's also a huge load of other problems with this that the community had already seen like people abusing the system and going 7-0 and dismantling their cards ect.
I've also seen the idea float around about a levelling system with skill based match making involved. Exactly how this could work? well I've seen many variations but I'll stick to a plain and simple version. You have 5 levels, bronze, silver, gold, platinum, and diamond. Your elo ranking determines where you'll be matched, with people of the same level. If people remember reading my 80/20 rule you'll realize that this rule will now apply not just once in one system, but now in five different levels. The top 20% of every level will stomp everyone in there level and the other 80% will be left in the dust. With this system were essentially creating the exact same problem we're trying to fix, in all 5 levels.
I've also even seen some players in this community get so upset that they've suggested that only 2000elo 2kd players be forced to only play against themselves. And there's honestly so many problems with this I'm not even sure how to make this neatly in a paragraph let alone start. Okay if you remember looking at my statics towards the top of the page you'll see that roughly 2500 players have above a 2000elo. That means that for matchmaking purposes this is going to be hell. These guys here are highly skilled and have put a lot of time and effort to be where they are today. And now we're punishing them because they're good? They will have to have there own recruiting forum on the app to find other players of there rank, and with only 2500 players to choose from, will take forever. The matchmaking times alone will take forever. Since the 80/20 rule applies everywhere, most likely roughly 80% of the 2000 elo guys will fall down below and wreck havoc anyways on everything. I could seriously write a book on how this could be a nightmare but I'll leave it at that since I'm sure you guys will see my point here. To conclude on this portion, this system would be completely broken and unfair.
Honestly this even confuses myself sometimes when I start talking numbers and rules and such. But the main focus to realize here is when we touch or tweak or mess around with the matchmaking system currently in trials, we create a whole bunch of other problems that leave us exactly where we started. Assuming that most of the players in this community are a millennial. The problem a lot of you want is instant gratification. You want to be able to go to the lighthouse now, and get the rewards now. You don't actually want to put any time, hard work, or determination to get there. You want it given to you.
For the people in this community that haven't complained and are still having difficulties getting there but are sticking with it. I salute you, I've been exactly where you've been at one point in my destiny career. Keep practising and stick with it! Don't give up!
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You know what would solve trials problems? Make a clear ban on paid carries, which would compromise the accounts of people paying and being paid. That's the reason why you're so likely to run into 2k+ players even though there are so few of them. Most games ban players for RMT, no reason for them to not do that here.
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8 RepliesI agree. Skill based matching would probably fix it, as well as the win based matching. Just longer wait times tho. If I have a 1.1 why should I have to play against 1.9s? And why should I play against .7s, it's not fair. Sometimes for me and sometimes for others. That's what I don't like about trials, also adding in map rotation would make many players happy. I'm probably not the only one who finds it boring to play on the same, map with the same game mode all weekend, am I right?
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Edited by Sideswipe: 1/15/2017 6:57:24 PM[quote]I've also seen the idea float around about a levelling system with skill based match making involved. Exactly how this could work? well I've seen many variations but I'll stick to a plain and simple version. You have 5 levels, bronze, silver, gold, platinum, and diamond. Your elo ranking determines where you'll be matched, with people of the same level. If people remember reading my 80/20 rule you'll realize that this rule will now apply not just once in one system, but now in five different levels. The top 20% of every level will stomp everyone in there level and the other 80% will be left in the dust. With this system were essentially creating the exact same problem we're trying to fix, in all 5 levels.[/quote] With 5 tiers, that means each tier has a roughly 200 elo difference. A 1400 elo team will find it [b][i]nigh-impossible [/i][/b]to beat a 1600 elo team? Or 1200 vs a 1400? Even 1800 vs 2000? Hogwash. Challenging? Sure. But that's the kind of challenge that most people would find more interesting than a 1400 elo against 1800+. You seem good with working out the raw numbers, but seem to know less than Bungie of what people want, what motivates them, and what sort of challenges they are willing to continually face. A tiered system may have its own problems (like any MM system) and may eventually dry up like most modes, but it would receive a better reception from players. Better to have an empty well-received endgame than an empty toxic one, yes? [quote]Assuming that most of the players in this community are a millennial. The problem a lot of you want is instant gratification. You want to be able to go to the lighthouse now, and get the rewards now. You don't actually want to put any time, hard work, or determination to get there. You want it given to you.[/quote] You went from intellectual to douchebag in about 5 paragraphs. From a neutral stance to elitist. The issue I have with this is that while you use those as an insult, but they also apply to you. While Trials does put emphasis on "gitting gud", you expect rewards with little effort as well. Why do I know this? Because any change means it will be harder for you, and that can't happen. You expect Bungie to serve up lesser players, which means you want it practically handed to you as well. Yes, you took the time to "git gud" (kudos to you on that), but you also want to play as few "got guds" as possible on your way to Ultimate Victory. "Participation Millenial" goes both ways I'm afraid. FWIW - Sports and Competitions in the real world have been using Tiers and Brackets for ages, each with their form of "endgame" or championships, a cornerstone of competitve balance. It builds confidence, passion, and motivation to keep playing while finding some sort of success along the way without being trounced by Pros. They have an actual ladder to climb and a place to aspire to along the way. Hell, even PvE has this - 2 forms of Raid endgame, Normal and Hard. Most games have at least 3 modes of difficulty - Easy, Normal, Difficult/Hard/Legendary. Video game PvP is the only place where people seem to find these ideas ludicrous. Getting pummeled by Pros in Game 1 is not how you endear your players to a mode when you're wanting to maintain and build their interest. This is what you don't seem to understand.
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TL;DR OP thinks that if you water down the matchmaking, trials will eventually disappear. He just likes to hear himself talk
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1 ReplyWhen did they mention they were changing trials of osiris matchmaking? Did i miss something?
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2 RepliesLemme tell you guys something, seeing as I'm one of "participation trophy" "instant gratification" millennial I seen people bring up. I played soccer when I was 6-7 years old and our team was awful. Now after they introduced each kid by name for the championship team and gave them each a trophy the size of my head it was the participants turn. Now what we got was a ribbon that actually said participant on it they handed to us out of a plastic bag which made you feel like a piece of trash (and not a entitled winner). What that did was make us wanna practice more often and try to be good and win next year so we didn't get handed another crappy ribbon. (Also most people getting a participation award are between the ages of 5-7, can you think of something YOU were "awarded" at 7 years old that changed how acted as an adult today?) I'm sorry but yeah instant gratification is something I'm guilty of. Ya see when all of us lazy millennials spent 4 years and LITERALLY going into debt for most of our adult lives going to college, but yeah, we kinda wanted/needed to find a job right away. Any-who lemme get of my soapbox here and tell you guys the best way to fix trials. They make it where you have different tiers of going flawless. Who ever your team leader is sets the card for how many wins your team thinks it can achieve. Can set a minimum amount of wins to chose and max amount. And depending on how many games you picked would depend on how small or large your reward is. 3 wins = artifact.....8 wins= a weapon.....something like that
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2 RepliesIn year one all these heroic YouTube publishers that everyone loves SO much complained and complained and complained that trials was too easy. I believe the number bungie came up with was 16% of people made it to the lighthouse. Bungie made a change that only effected 1% of players. If the numbers were SO dramatic, then what did this change accomplish? Just laggier trials. It's still just as sweaty, believe me. My point is that unless the results are that dramatic, why would a company decide to choose against connection being a priority? Are the streamers lining your pockets or otherwise making you money?
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3 RepliesThe people who want flawless to be easy are people who cannot get flawless. They don't seem to understand that getting flawless is a feat that requires skill and teamwork. Even the DEV team said trials is not for everyone. The problem is that everyone thinks the trials is for them.
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Edited by SP4l2TAN: 1/15/2017 6:14:26 AMYour 80/20 argument for each of the 5 tiers is bunk, and I can tell you why. Right now, using your numbers, only the top 15% are making it to the LH. That's the top 15% overall. If you break it up into tiers, the lower you go in skill level, there would be another top 15% per tier. And since the majority of the PVP community is not top 15% that means more people would be able to go flawless per tier, and each tier would have more of a chance to get there. If that wasn't clear enough, I will do it a different way: Players A/B/C always go flawless. They are ultra badass. In the Top 5%. Players D/E/F are good. They sometimes go flawless. In the Top 15% G/H/I are mediocre. Once in a blue moon a very small portion will get carried. In the 40% J/K/L aren't that great. Odds are slim to none. In the 60% range. And M-Z suck. Guaranteed to never make it without divine intervention. Bottom 40%. The way things currently are, ABC always go flawless and sometimes carry someone from the lesser tiers on their back, and every once in awhile DEF will make it. But that's it. That's 25% of the community have somewhat of a chance. That's a big middle finger from bungee to the other 75% of PVP players. The vast majority of G-Z hardly ever make it, if at all. Opening up to a tier'd system would allow more people the opportunity to not only get there, but help others in return. If the top percentage want some sort of recognition, have a new "Challenge Book" that other players can see that show you the odds of going flawless in your tier vs your odds of going flawless in other tiers. Have it count the times you have gone up and gone down, and make special colours the higher up you manage to go. If you have a "record section" of this book, need to rely on "destinytrialsreport.com" might go down some as well.
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Well said, and I completely agree
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Whether it's an algorithm or a blind autistic hamster tossing a coin, it really doesn't matter. They need to address latency. That's for all crucible game types.
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What value does trials even have in the first place? In year one it was "get a better version of that one weapon you love" but now it's "get a RE-SKIN of the weapon you love," with no extra perks other than bragging rights, so a majority of people don't even see it as worth doing, so that's a problem. And you said everyone would be able to go flawless, well not quite. More people would be able to go flawless, it would just be a bit easier because the card system is still in effect where you would go against someone of "similar" skill rating. And I know it's supposed to be competitive, but it's turning into a sort of a scandal where people can pay to be carried, and doesn't that ruin the whole competitive aspect? Limiting content to the elite is ok for competitive game modes, but people CHARGING, or requiring you to watch their stupid twitch stream just to get some reskinned garbage is rediculous. Sure it's "more fun" for the people who like to destroy, but getting shutdown when your SO close is quite annoying, it prevents people who "try" from getting their goal. Now it's too the point where a lot of people have to be carried just to go flawless and that, to me, limits the whole system in itself. I have been to the light house once in year one (because I got literally everything I wanted in the first 2 weeks of trials coming out) and i have to say the experience of just going to the light house is far greater (at least to me) then getting the gear. It was a beautiful sight just to BE there, and so many people can't just see it without watching garbage YouTubers play around there. It's truly sad to me that so many people don't get to check it out.
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12 RepliesI sort of just skimmed your post ( way to much shit to read) but here's my response. Destiny is basically dead. With the small player base that still plays we should do everything we can to prevent segregating the players. If you keep removing players that you can match against you're only going to create more lag. Let's look at it this way. The way trials matchmaking currently works is card based. If 1000 teams enter on a new card when it comes to the second game only 500 teams are available to match against. By the 3rd win there are 250 teams to play against. You get where I'm going with this.
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Edited by Stari: 1/13/2017 11:55:50 PMDestiny's PvP is a big lagging joke with delay (latency). That's why it will never be an equaly fair competition......unless we get dedicated servers.
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You're making an analysis on an already dying game mode. Trials was fun in year one and I think that's one of the main reasons there are less players now; because it's no longer fun. It might be for a team of pub stompers but not for everyone else. The gear drop rate is bullshit. The maps are trash with the inclusion of the single heavy spawn. The weapons are unbalanced and the matchmaking is still plagued with lag. Bring back the old style of matchmaking for Trials and greatly increase the drop rates. Lower the number of wins to seven and kill off all the account recoveries. Then maybe you'll get a majority of players back with more emphasis on it being fun again.
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Yeah sure. Crucible (casual pvp mode) : SBMM Osiris (ultimate competitive end game pvp mode) : no SBMM Bungie's logic...
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and i'm here just looking for a team to play a card or 2 with! I have an idea! how about Trials match Making like the strike playlist
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Bungie just needs to hold firm. Trials is fun how it is. You have some easy games, some highly competitive games, then you have some where you get stomped This generation of gamers, and I hate to be this guy, but they need to get a grip. Challenges are fun. Telling yourself "Im going to dedicate my gaming time to becoming good at this PVP" and then doing it is a great feeling. Its awesome going from the stomped to the stomper. That seems to be lost on the younger crowd. They just want instant gratification. And once they get that gratification in the form of all the Trials gear then they'll complain Bungie needs to make more loot or it was too easy to get just like they are doing with Nightfalls all of a sudden. Alright Im done ranting about these new entitled pussies.
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Just put people that have been flawless only match with other flawless and anyone over a certain number of wins (5?).
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1 ReplyLol yes. Keep it that way. Good players should never be penalized for being better. Was 0.4 once and got to 1.2. So if u try u can reach flawless, if u don't put in effort to become better, you won't. As simple as that. All these people complaining about not getting flawless is really annoying
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1 ReplyWhy not make trials easier? There is not 1 excuse for not making it more fair and "easier",those of us who play PvE more get the crap end of your "PvP" elitism fallout by ruining our weapons and making raids and strikes easier. Do it for 1 you must do it for the other.You guys complained and got your way so now it's our turn.
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1 ReplySo it's ok to make the pve side of the game appeal to more casuals by introducing 3oc's and making raids shorter and nerfing all our good guns and such but when it comes to pvp and trials don't touch it? It's unbalanced and it needs reworking and unfortunately for the elitists it WILL happen and when it does it will appeal to more people than it does now. Maybe the theory you state won't work but something's got to be done about trials and that much is fact.
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You point out what would happen with SBMM, and how it would reduce your matchmaking pool leading to longer wait times. That is what we have now. With the tiered matchmaking, your matchmaking pool diminishes exponentially after each win. Trials needs to switch back to Y1 matchmaking that was connection based only, no tiers, no SBMM. This would mean you could randomly match with any level of skill team, at any time, BUT, matchmaking times would be less, and the quality of the connections would be better.
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[quote] Honestly this even confuses myself sometimes[/quote]
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This weekend, I will be happy to attempt taking someone who has not been able to visit the lighthouse flawless. Just message me if you are interested, and I will see if I will be able to squeeze you in this week.
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8 RepliesHow did matchmaking in trials work in year 1? I know they changed it up
