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Edited by The Legend Himself: GONZO: 5/24/2024 2:23:12 AM
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Why do you hate Warlocks, Bungie? (Not what you think.)

I’m not mad about the Well nerf. Honestly, I’m tired of being pigeonholed into using it since it’s the only remotely viable super we have. You CLEARLY either hate Warlocks or don’t actually play them. This should be plainly obvious but, for some reason, it is not: Solar: (Daybreak) This super might look like it does good damage on paper but in practice, it’s a pile of hot garbage! Why? Because unlike a Celestial Nighthawk Hunter or a Pyrogale Gauntlets Titan, Warlocks have no way to pump out comparable damage with Daybreak because while we’re floating in the air firing our slow moving projectiles, our Hunter and Titan brothers and sisters have already fired their supers, matched or exceeded the total damage we’ll eventually get to, and moved onto weapon DPS. Arc: (Chaos Reach) Similar to daybreak, we are required to float in the air, firing our super for an extended period of time whereas a Hunter has attached his staff to the boss and has moved on to weapon DPS. Titans suffer a worse fate because Thundercrash seems to have a “reverse magnetic polarity” effect on bosses, which heavily negates the utility of Cuirass of the Falling Star. However, I’ll leave this complaint to Titan mains. Void: (Nova Bomb) Both Cataclysm and Vortex do pathetic damage compared to any Hunter “one-and-done” super and we lack any exotic that can boost its damage and the insignificant changes that you’ve proposed will do NOTHING to move the needle. Also, similar to Broodweaver, Cataclysm seems to have an annoying preference towards minors/majors. Warlocks NEED an exotic that turns Nova Bomb into a powerful one-and-done boss killer! Strand: (Broodweaver) The projectiles fired from this super (our second and last “one-and-done” super) cannot be relied upon for any kind of burst damage because the woven needles appear to not only have a mind of their own but a HEAVY bias towards minor & major enemies around a boss, even with the most perfect aim. Even when they miraculously all connect on a boss, the total damage does not begin to compete with a Celestial Nighthawk Golden Gun or Arc Staff. Stasis: (Shadebinder) Have y’all EVER used this super in game!? Like, actually used it to play literally ANY remotely difficult activity? This has got to be one of the worst supers ever created! What’s the problem, you ask? The reliance on the shatter damage by the shockwave oftentimes misses because targets that are initially frozen by your Stasis shards are easily knocked out of their frozen state by other players and/or the environment, leaving the pulse to just do a pathetic knock back effect with minimal damage. This happens WAY MORE than you might realize. This is especially noticeable when using Ballidorse Wrathweavers. Conclusion: I’ve drawn a lot of comparisons between Warlocks and Hunters but let me make one thing perfectly clear. In no way do I want Hunters to be nerfed into the pathetic state that Warlocks are in. I love my Hunter and easily have the best time with it because every last one of its kits is amazing and makes you feel truly powerful or magical (some more than others, of course). What I’m asking is for Warlocks to have an opportunity to be just as effective offensively. Notice that I’ve said nothing of roaming supers since most are terrible on every character but that’s a whole other discussion. Warlocks deserve to have a meta damage-dealing super. At least one! Now that WoR is getting curbed stomped (again, not mad about it), Warlocks will find themselves as nothing more than a pathetic healer with no power fantasy. Stop hating on Warlocks and allow them to actually be useful offensive weapons with a fun power fantasy. Edit: Added suggestions as a spoiler for anyone interested. [spoiler]I’ve realized that while my complaints are valid, I have failed to make any suggestions. I want to correct that on the off-chance that someone at Bungie sees this but I’m hiding it as a “spoiler” since I can’t reasonably expect anyone to take the time to read my already too long post in its entirety. (Daybreak) Contrary to what you might think based on what I said earlier, I do not think that Daybreak needs to be a burst DPS powerhouse. It’s more-or-less fine as is, though I do think Dawn Chorus should get back its super extending properties. (Chaos Reach) Similar to Daybreak, I think it’s fine as is. (Nova Bomb) It lacks burst DPS and it’s extremely unreliable. Let’s fix this. First, make Cataclysm unbreakable until it reaches its target or collides with a structure BUT allow the caster to detonate it on command by activating their super again (similarly to a “super cancel” animation). Second, make Cataclysm have a strong bias towards Boss enemies, instead of its current bias towards minors/majors. Third, rework an exotic or create a new one that allows Vortex to create a powerful and continuous pull that sucks combatants to its center, like a miniature black whole, that also weaken targets sucked in (for faster kills). At least one of these supers should have burst DPS values that rival a Celestial Nighthawk Hunter or Pyrogale Gauntlets Titan. (Broodweaver) Simply put, allow the needles to go where aimed. I’ve perfectly aimed at a boss numerous times only to see my needles go all over the place. I’m not suggesting that they get a massive damage buff. Just let the player chose whether or not he wants to damage a boss (with his whole super) or fire it at a crowd for add control. (Shadebinder) I like that the pulse detonates crystals and shatters enemies BUT the pulse’s damage needs a massive damage buff. It should not [i]rely[/i] on shatter to do damage. Let the damage of the pulse stand on its own. This would help Ballidorse Wrathweavers since, as it stands, is completely unreliable and inconsistent (for the reasons I mentioned earlier).[/spoiler]

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  • They definitely hate Warlocks, this can easily be proven with how they did the new supers and any gear the Warlock has. You can tell Bungie does not play their game nor do they play Warlocks. There is no need for Warlocks to have 3+ exotics catering to rifts. Where is the fantasy of being a Warlock who can charge an ability and cause chaos??? The class feels so watered down and misaligned with the title it holds.

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    • Whoa there these are valid points and not just saying game bad we can't have that here, I suggest deleting this post immediately

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      • I think warlocks were complaining about always having to use Well and now they won’t - they still complain.

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        • Idk man, Dawn Chorus Warlocks have been kinda cookin this season with Dragon’s Breath.

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          • We are super powerful but I agree about some of the supers not being super. I’m running my OG Void Build in Onslaught and loving it honestly. I got tired of my Cataclysmic Nova Bomb floating off to chase ads in the boss room though. Literally in front of the boss and it floats off to the right haha. So I switched to Vortex and it’s much better and only a little less powerful. They should combine both Nova Bombs into one with their best traits IMO. They need to buff Skull back to its original form. I was surprised they didn’t with the whole Ahamakara skull thing in FS. Guess Star Eater on a bond might help it with prismatic. I love Needlestorm on Strand and it’s my favorite super. Chaos Reach with Geomags is excellent since they made changes to it. Well has been the most broken Super in D2. Now that it’s nerfed (I honestly don’t care) I’m hopeful our new super will be powerful. The rest of our supers need help.

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          • Once upon a time my voidlock was arguably my most powerful character. It just had a problem with the super. Instead of fixing the problem, it was made more acute. It became a trade off for me, and I played void less. I just wanted the void ball to appear at the target location without the ridiculous floating across the room. A grenade throw and the ball appears. I am fine with the super animations for all my other characters, and I believe them when they say the animation timing is the same for all characters. There is just something about my warlocks animations that sometimes scream “hey look at me!” and not in a good way. Once I was playing Shadebinder in Iron Banner…I would always hide around a corner to pop my super…the animation is problematic. I see the enemy team and duck around a corner (thinking I am gonna catch at least three of them) pop my super and sure enough…a hunter comes around the corner and melee’s me. One shot melee killed before the animation is done. Humiliating, but it really sums up some of the warlock super animations.

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          • Edited by SMlFFY: 5/23/2024 11:04:54 PM
            4
            SMlFFY
            SMlFFY

            Killed by the Architects - old

            I'd like to see Skull of Dire Ahamkara get a nice rework, maybe make it so it could function similar to Shards of galanor and Celestial NH so that you receive super energy back from vortex or cataclysm hits and not just kills. I honestly think that Novabomb once again has only had a minor buff because the Contraverse holds build is still really decent, add a powerful burst super into the mix with og devour, and Voidlocks would be in a really sweet place . Bungie won't allow that, Warlocks actually having fun and feeling useful. Are you mad.

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              Agent Vulpes
              Agent Vulpes

              Guardian since August 5, 2020 || D1 & D2 - old

              I’m actually usually a Shadebinder main lol

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              • Notably, these supers prioritize ad-clear over DPS. I assume bungie’s idea is that this is the role Warlocks serve. Not that it’s a good thing, by any means. But just something I noticed

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                • Everyone should know this already since it is very well known but.... Warlocks are not meant for DPS or damage roles. Warlocks are the ASSIST/survivability class.

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                  • Edited by DaNegativeOne: 5/24/2024 3:05:33 AM
                    The issue with the Warlocks and their DPS fantasy: Warlocks are typically support. While, yes, they're not exclusively support, they still can dish some good damage, there are balances that have to be made to distinctify classes from each other. The way Bungie did that was making Hunters glass cannons loaded with grapeshot, Titans were made into walking tanks, and Warlocks are an expansion of arms and armor (with the latter typically being in the form of endless healing). I think that while Warlocks are doing less than preferable damage for my playstyle (kill you before you kill me), it has proven to be a very viable option in Destiny. I have yet to complete a Master Lost Sector on my Hunter (I've only managed legend). Guess where I got (most) of my solo-flawless clears? Warlock. I hate playing them, but DAMMIT I wish I had their survivability. You just can't win them all.

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                    • (Void) Tbh cataclysm should be removed outright. They’ve tried fixing the tracking numerous times and it hasn’t really gotten better. IMO they should replace it with D1 shatter bomb but have each of the three bombs shatter into a carpet bombing of scatter projectiles, and it should apply volatile. For vortex, I completely agree with you but also thing the suction should exist even a tad bit outside of the damage radius since enemies love to just stand still outside of it. Both variants also need MASSIVE damage buffs to even begin to compete. Along with this, the need to buff chaos accelerant. It is the only grenade aspect that requires a charge up and stops super regen, so it should be doing more than the others. Scatter grenade should instead create a carpet bombing of many more scatter bolts, axion should have one more bolt and apply weaken, sorted should have a large suction area and deal more damage, and HHSN should deal a ton more damage and have a larger range and come with more projectiles that have mild tracking (so all bolts can converge on a single target). Also, feed the void should have another side effect since the fragment grants devour just as easily. Maybe it could also increase super generation on grenade kills. Pocket singularity needs to do a ton more damage to even begin to keep up with melees on any other class, and tbh its explosion radius needs to be bigger. (Arc) Chaos Reach is trash. I strongly believe it should fire a single high power rail cannon style beam that overpenetrates and causes lighting to fall where every hit lands, with an explosion at the tip wherever that be. Stormtrance needs to not hit like wet noodles outside of patrol red bars and have its range increased. The damage should ramp up faster and have a window where it stays ramped up. Lightning surge needs to be reworked so the ball is cast away from the guardian, since being the ball no matter how much DR they add will always end in death outside of patrols, and they need to actually increase the damage to match comparable aspects. Chain lightning melee needs to deal more damage and have the range extended. Ball lightning just needs a damage bump. Lightning surge should deal more damage over a wider area if amplified. (Solar) Daybreak should naturally still have the super extending effect tbh, it’s hot trash in PvE. They should honestly remove Well so people can finally stop crunching it. The reason bubble worked was because you still have to actually think about what you’re gonna do. You’re not standing still and shooting like a brain dead Neanderthal. I still cannot believe (but also am totally not shocked) that they literally reskinned radiance from D1, as super that people ONLY used for self-res, and made and orange arc soul as if anyone actually wanted that. I don’t know what the fuss is about the “buddies.” Set and forget abilities are a massive waste and do absolutely nothing to actually engage meaningful gameplay. They should’ve kept it at arc souls and child, but you know that can’t be bothered to think up new ideas for warlocks. Even look at the class specific swords. Titans and hunters have new frames that have new effects meanwhile warlocks got a regular -blam!- sword. The long range melee needs damage help. (Strand) Honestly I think needlestorm is fine, though I get the frustration. I think having the threadlings also deal increased damage compared to regular threadlings and making them spawn more consistently would be great tbh. I like their buff to weavers call. It feels less useless. Also I really believe the mindspun invocation Threadling buff should have you throw out eight Threadlings instead of perching them. The weavers call buff essentially makes it obsolete. The melee could use a slight buff to damage, and weavewalk should get a second fragment slot. (Stasis) Stasis needs to be reworked as a whole. It was great while the light subclasses still sucked but fell FAR behind and still hasn’t caught up. Frost armor is just a worse woven mail, and should explode upon expiration whether by the timer ending or being broken. Freeze is just a worse suspend and should instead be an automatic shatter. Crystals can still encase things but should auto shatter after a few seconds. Bleak watcher should deal straight up damage and build up to shatters, and also auto shatter targets on kills. Stasis could even work similarly to solar, but I dead of scorch building to an ignition, stasis would deal more straight up damage to “encrust” enemies and either auto shatter on kill or deal a more powerful and bigger shatter upon reaching a certain threshold, like ignition. Iceflare should be a stronger version of that artifact mod that made projectiles sprawn off of crystals, but spawn instead off of shattered enemies and deal more damage, and potentially ricochet. All stasis damage would also lead to a shatter, but like I said before the more stacks of “encrusted” an enemy has, the larger and deadlier the shatter is. Frostpulse can launch several crystals outward from the warlock that encircle them. Shatter stasis crystals should decrease rift cooldown as part of this aspect. Take out harvest and replace it with something useful since it’s a glorified fragment. Maybe and in air dodge similar to Icarus where enemies in the radius are dealt physical damage and stacks of “encrusted.” Winter’s Wrath should instead fire a several constant streams of damaging bolts. These would build “encrusted” very quickly and cause even deadlier shatters upon kill and max stacks on enemies. They can keep the shatter pulse noise, but instead have it be a secondary attack that focuses the energy of the stream into a condensed beam of stasis enemy that deals high amount of damage at a long range, but slim area. It would automatically cause max encrusted stacks and be capable of dealing precision damage, and solve the problem of everyone shattering your stuff. Also the melee imo should send out several damaging projectiles that converge at longer ranges, and be a sort of dark reflection of incinerator snap. Oh and whisper of rending shouldn’t even be a thing. Crystals should shatter immediately upon shooting them if they are yours. Add DOT to slow effects too, like a whirlwind. For example, duskfield should have small stasis shrapnel shards flying through it while it slows since slow on its own is trash. (Prismatic) There’s way too many set and forget abilities here and makes for a super passive and boring playstyle. We already have a summoner in the Broodweaver, we didn’t need another. Replace healing grenade with fusion or solar. Replace nova bomb with warp. Replace Stormtrance with chaos reach. Keep bleak watcher in the case of what is mentioned above, otherwise replace it with frostpulse (imagine blinking above a crowns and Phoenix giving into them with a frostpulse, like wow). Replace hellion with heat rises (assuming we aren’t keeping bleak watcher; imagine using nextrotic grips, devour, and heat rises with arcane needle and storm grenades to create plagues and storms from far above the horde of enemies). Otherwise keep it I guess, I just hope it does more than what it looks like (slow orange arc soul and nothing more). We can keep lightning surge with the above changes since arc soul is really pushing it. I could actually see it being nice to get rift energy faster for a frost pulse, but again set and forget abilities are so damn boring. We have three aspects that do this in prismatic. There’s only one way to truly play actively and in its current state even deforming save you from dying mid electric slide lol. But who know maybe this will all be better than how it looks on paper

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                    • Gotta Give it to you bro. You're analysis is on point of the supers. Now Bungie is nerfing Sunbracers. Did the Devs ever think that perhaps we should buff/rework the unused exotics to make them more desirable. No....let's just perform the good ones. Not even gonna lie, prismatic looks comically stupid to me. Bring on this final shape and let me be done with this Game. I don't want to be a titan or hunter, so apparently this game isn't geared towards a Warlock's enjoyment. Good Job Bungie. NB. Could you get a real Dev to work on the Warlock outfits. Most of the Helmets are just God awful.

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                      • This coming update is the same as every other one they put out: Nerf Titan, Hunter will remain top dog. Was there a third class? nah who cares, post it. For once I'd like to see Warlock on top of trials report, or Titan with the highest damage super. Bungie seems determined to leave that for Hunter. Well of Radiance will remain just good enough we will still be forced to run it. It's the same story with Starfire. We are forced to use well, but at least we can put out some DPS with Starfire. NOOOOOO can't have that. Use well, do pathetic damage and like it. Really Bungie?

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                        • Bungie just hates its players

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                        • I played on my Warlock for a bit today, after running Hunter for months now. What I find interesting is how much easier it is to build for the Hunter. It is way easier than the other two classes to build into god tier. The damage output is ridiculous too, especially on Strand. Warlock building has some solid ones I've used, but I really feel WAY more limited with the Warlock. Not to mention the usual "only Wellock" yeah screw that. I like my Well, but I hate that they are so underperforming, comparative the other two, that this is the only viable option in activities. Its a big reason I stopped playing Warlock. Even as a Hunter though, anytime I do an activity, nobody else really uses Warlock, and then I'm requested to switch to it. Nothing but Well. Nope. I'm tired of that. I don't know how bad the Well nerf was. I didn't use it in my exploits today, but the last thing that needed was a nerf. It already, largely feels useless in any high tier activities. You're still dead in one shot, even from splash, so why use it? If its a super, even in the highest tier activities it should provide awesome healing. Stasis lock was pretty awesome for crowd control, but it feels way lacking since my last run with it. I was suspending alot of enemies earlier with Strand, and it was kind of cool, but still just feels lacking from the absolute chaos train I can regularly run with Hunter. I don't touch Titan much, but I'm right in the Strand group with many. You just can't beat Titan Banner of War with any of their other classes. Largely the game has become so overly difficult that if you don't have a God build, good luck on even basic activities. Its absolute nonsense. There should be no truly useless builds, and all characters should be able to do as massive of damage output as the next in their respective ways. Warlocks have fallen a long way. Hunters are incredibly easy to build for, but Warlocks just need help. On a quick note, I also find Celestial Nighthawk to be undesirable now. The damage output from that one shot is just abysmal from way back. Doesn't feel worth it anymore. I really find only a handful of Hunter exotics (or any in general, I suppose) useful. Each class has a good number of specific exotics, but the Warlock does seem to get a good number of more universal exotics. Hunter exotics are heavily specific, and the only one I truly like, that feels useful, and doesn't force me into a specific playstyle is Knucklehead Radar. That's it. The rest just don't really appeal. Oathkeepers is cool, but its wasted without bows, and bows feel way less useful than they used to, and I mean when you're accurate, still hitting all, or most of your targets. They just don't hit hard enough for the tiny -blam!- spaces this game revolves around so ridiculously. I've never enjoyed specific exotics though. I really only find more universal exotics useful, through all classes. Warlocks really feel heavily underperforming almost all around now, though. Its just not really a fun class for this game anymore, I feel. Used to be enjoyable, but I probably won't touch Warlock again until some good improvements that will never come. I'd say a good 80% of the people I play with are Hunters. Its not rare to find Warlocks, but they aren't too common in my games. I feel alot of people just don't see a great viability with them, understandably so, and its a shame because they have alot of potential, or they used to. Maybe nerfs just made them mostly useless now. Also Dawnblade is pretty awful. I feel it needs a damage buff, or more intense burn without an exotic. Projectile seeking is a huge problem in general, with the game. Even when shooting, the god awful aim assist is constantly pulling me off of targets and causing problems. Warlock Strand super would be very nice if it just focused on one target too. I agree. Once again, doing Onslaught. I'm in the boss room and its the giant Shrieker that takes up most of the space. Every time I throw my super out, dead center to that big -blam!- eye, I watch everything just go completely around to every other enemy, and maybe one or two hit it. I hate it so much. Not useless, but not desirable either. Its clearly a focused, high damage super, it should only track targets within a small space at most, or maybe they could add an alternate focused green needle super, so players can choose if they want to hit one target, or many. Its weird that our light classes have 3 supers to choose from, and darkness only gets one per.

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                          • I feel this post. So many Warlock supers are trash. I'm shocked they didn't at least buff Stormtrance since it's part of Prismatic. I'm hoping that the Shatter damage increase affects Winter's Wrath shatter damage as well, could be spicy, especially with Ballidorse and it's changes. But it probably won't, sadly.

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                            • Because he’s loved titans 🫰🏻

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                            • Time to find some new strengths. I just roll with it.

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                              • Warlocks?? What about titans?

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                                • Get in line, bungie hates titans the most and titans are hated by everyone in the playerbase

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                                  • I just want a good pvp exotic personally. Only ever use ophidians, t steps or astrocytes.

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                                    • Warlocks may not have damage supers but while they are helpful, weapon damage makes up more of our dps and warlock has access to rain of fire Strand warlock and threat of ascent grapple reloading is also extremely potent. Your super is able to proc the fragment to give you back grenade energy on damage.

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                                      • I just wished they buffed the other supers when they nerfed well, radiance will probably be nice but for real most of our supers are just meh

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                                        • I made a very similar post, but yours is a little more detailed and polite than mine lol all points are succinct and accurate. Yet there are some that will look at the nova bomb changes and call that a buff lmao We all knew a well nerf was coming as was stated months ago, yet in typical bungie fashion, hunters are the only class allowed to deal damage.

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                                          • When you look at there livestream most of the dev are titan an hunter players so ya we are not gonna see much love for warlocks just small changes an a bandage here an there.

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