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Edited by DeeJ: 9/13/2016 12:15:38 AM
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DeeJ

Notes on the Hand Cannon.

Guardians, Recently, our conversation as a community has included a spirited debate about the role of the Hand Cannon in Destiny. We had that same chat in our own house. Here is a statement that our Sandbox Design Team created together. Those are the developers who work on the overall gameplay in Destiny. These are their words. [quote]Hello Destiny community! Due to a recent resurgence in feedback about “Ghost Bullets” we wanted to take a minute to explain how and why the weapons in Destiny behave the way that they do… “Ghost Bullets” is a community-coined term that is being used to describe the frustration of missing the intended target due to weapon stats. The bullets aren’t disappearing, they just aren’t hitting the bullseye. Internally, we would call this specific aspect of a weapon “Accuracy,” which is one of the values embedded in the Range Stat of every Destiny weapon. When looking at Destiny weapon archetypes, we wanted players to be able to assume a weapon’s traits through visuals and an intuitive understanding of how weapons work. Players can make the assumption that barrel length, and stability (stock) will affect the accuracy of a weapon class. These types of distinctive behaviors make for fun and interesting choices within the action simulation. In short, Hand Cannons, with a relatively short barrel and no stock, are not intended to be long range precision weapons like a Scout Rifle or a Sniper Rifle. Instead they are big, heavy, [u]pistols[/u] that pack a large punch. If you can control the kick, and close on your targets during combat, you will likely (as our friend Variks says) “Kill them dead.” We want to very sincerely say that this communique is not meant to be argumentative or belittle any of the consistent feedback we’ve received on the subject. Regardless of how “correctly” the game systems are working, the core message is that shooting a Hand Cannon during high skill gameplay can feel inconsistent and/or frustrating for people. [b]We hear you, and we are always looking to improve on that experience.[/b] While it’s unlikely that we would completely remove Accuracy as a concept from Destiny weapons, we will investigate alternative options to balance Hand Cannons vs. other weapon archetypes. Destiny is a game that will evolve as players push, pull, and build the world. You are wonderful people, the best community, and passionate about this game in a way that pushes us to always be our best. Thank you for playing, and thank you for reading.[/quote] To reiterate that the game makers just said: These conversations are never finished. Keep telling us what you think about the gunplay and the balance in Destiny, and us community guys continue to add your voice to their discussion about our creative process. [spoiler]Moderator edit: This thread has been moved to the #Destiny forum. See [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/140391030/0/0]Cozmo's thread[/url] for more information about the #Destiny tag and its uses. Feel free to private message the moderator who moved your post, link to topic, for further clarification about why this topic was moved.[/spoiler]
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  • Well personally I'd like to see a universal increase in the lethality of primary weapons to make a pvp meta that isn't so heavily dictated by special weapons. But I do believe handcannons need an accuracy bump just because much as bungie doesn't want to admit its true mid range doesn't really start till 30 meters out. Because of destiny's mobility anything closer is dominated by shotguns.

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  • Ive actually been pleasantly surprised by the crucible lately. I havent been one shotted from 200 yards with a haaand cannon for quite some time. Keep them where they are.

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  • Take out bloom, increase the damage fall off. Boom solved.

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    • Edited by Hardfugoo: 9/29/2016 4:47:00 AM
      To be fair... this doesn't make much sense when I'm less than a foot away from an acolyte and fire at his massive three eyed head and the bullet just doesn't do anything. Doesn't hit a wall... doesn't hit the intended target... just gone. That's not accuracy or an intended game design (well shouldn't be) that's quite literally a ghost bullet

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    • Can the sandbox team come back and explain what happens to the bullets that dont dissapear but do not register in the range of say 1 to 6 guardians distance from shooter? The explanation above is fine for the ranged shots but the issue I personally experience is "ghost bullets" or bloom or what ever you want to call it happens in the range handcannons are supposed to dominate or at least compete.

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    • You guys killed the thorn?

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      • Can Ill Will 2shot? By its stats it should be able to.

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        • It's a simple solution! Return the beloved Fatebringer! Problem solved!

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          • Edited by Himalayan Salt: 9/28/2016 3:25:51 PM
            How many people are complaining about hand cannons when everybody who's sweaty is using TLW, The Palindrome, and Eyasluna? They are incredibly popular guns and yet everybody seems to think they suck. I just think they don't know what a good roll is. [spoiler]Concerning hand cannons in particular, you should be looking for a fatebringer-archetype with high range and good reload. Generally speaking, stability is negligible unless you personally have a problem with controlling your shots.[/spoiler] Given, I think that certain hand cannons that [i]should[/i] occupy a certain usable niche in the PvP environment don't do exactly that, just like how medium impact pulse rifles take the same bullets to kill a player as hawksaw-esque guns but have a slower rate of fire, effectively making them useless. The problem with guns now is not that an entire gun type is broken. There are usable guns in every category across the board. The real problem is that within each category, there are sub-types (or archetypes) that perform better than their counterparts. This is not acceptable. People should choose their gun to match their play style. They should not choose another gun because choosing the gun that they really want would put them at an inherent disadvantage. A Shadow Price should have the same ttk as a Doctrine of Passing. It should be a matter of play style and skill on the part of the shooters.

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            • How about you fix the problem with the strikes are you serious? We as customers have paid this amount of money and you still can't fix the strikes? It's so bad that at a light level of 350 it's dropping blues at 2:40. What's the purpose of the grind yes we have to be a certain level to play the next raid but how are we supposed to get there when your system isn't working right.

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              • While it's reasonable to attempt to 'balance' weapons, your methods are what we find suspect. Gun too strong -> bugger the accuracy! Gun too accurate-> bugger up the strength! Want to balance handcannons: make the Damage fall off more aggressively at range. You did that to shotguns. I can outrange a shotgun with my jump! You didn't make them shoot like sh1t, just can't shoot sh1t. Follow that lead...

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              • The more testing i do in private matches the more rediculous i find bungies explination. Seriously please fix HC class.

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              • They are the hardest of the primary classes to use effectively. I think this is where they get some negative feedback. That and they were over powered in year 1 so some people judge them vs that

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              • Why doesn't Bungie make a way to cycle through primary weapons without having to go into the options screen, the same way I can cycle between primary, special and heavy. That way I can switch from a HC to something longer range if I need to, based on game situation, without getting killed while I'm screwing around with weapons in the options menu. Just a thought....

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                • Don't let this topic die until they actually respond. I'm not a hand cannon user but I just want to see what there response will be to all of the people calling them out lol. That is if they respond which is very very very unlikely. You know cuz it's the new bungie.

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                • The thing is guys, during the thorn era bungie thought hand cannons were in a good place. Guess why they got changed? You guessed it. Because everyone bitched. Now they are not fun. Long story short, the nerf herders need to think before they fuss.

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                  • Problem is, they don't fill their role as a cqc weapon. TLW was the only one that ever did and look what you did to that smh...

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                  • All you had to do is fix two OP exoctic HC bungie. Instead you -blam!- up the whole class. Oh that gun works let's -blam!- up the entire class. That is Bungie Logic.

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                  • You guys ruined hand cannons, I hope you're happy!

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                  • Well, I personally believe that you guys should buff the range slightly, make the accuracy MUCH better, and keep the two exotics the way they are, they're place if fine imo, every other hand cannon got crippled with them which wasn't very fair and seemed kinda rushed.

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                  • Edited by MadHaze_01: 9/24/2016 9:22:26 AM
                    Nothing wrong with hand cannons imo. If you're missing shots then change your playstyle and get in closer. The weapons in destiny force you to change your tactics , this is how it should be . Good job Bungie.

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                    • You didn't so a very good job at trying to meet your goals. Someone should take you out to shoot some real guns some time because you obviously have no idea what it's like

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                    • Cool. If you didn't want us to use hand-cannons, just remove them. I haven't really used them since the update (minus the occasional attempt to remind myself why I stopped using them). Enjoy your spirited debate, and I'll enjoy other guns until you figure out how your game works.

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                      • I just don't understand why we can't just pick up any hand cannon and perform well with it anymore. You need Rifled Barrel or some sort of range perk or you won't be hitting shots. Don't know why these ghost bullets were necessary when we have crazy damage drop off now.

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                        • How do people get to 370 for raid when your doing high strike play list the blues our only dropping at max 340 this is not a good thing needs to be raise up to get to do the raid or your loose players

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                          • Edited by sk_8_erboy: 9/27/2016 8:00:25 AM
                            All I'm saying is it's a little bit upsetting when you're face to face with a person get that headshot final kill and next thing you know you're standing there with your junk in your hand getting wrecked because there was no shot... Edit: all I use is hand cannons and I'm not a terrible shot just sometimes I think "rangefinder" only works on shottys, and lacks the range when the person is "killing me dead" a foot away from me.

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