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3/25/2023 5:58:53 PM
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I told every one that any kind of re-design/re-vamp to the old strikes strikes would just be extra health gates.
What do I get for being right?
English
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[quote]I told every one that any kind of re-design/re-vamp to the old strikes strikes would just be extra health gates. What do I get for being right?[/quote] Except that not what happened. They didn’t add or change the health gates on either boss.
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Except thats what happened for arms dealer atleast. You could kill the bosses before if you had enough burst. Now you cant, Thats called a health gate. You can be obtuse as much as you like but imma gonna quote rick and morty on this one "its just slavery with extra steps".
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Modifié par Bore : 3/26/2023 1:21:18 AM[quote]Except thats what happened for arms dealer atleast. You could kill the bosses before if you had enough burst. Now you cant, Thats called a health gate. You can be obtuse as much as you like but imma gonna quote rick and morty on this one "its just slavery with extra steps".[/quote] The boss always had a soft health gate that you could brute force, but it was still gated. Now it is a hard health gate, which prevent over damaging (aka no more solar nades through the floor while he is supposed to be immune). They did not add a health gate. The actual changes to the strike are at the beginning and middle sections, where they totally reworked the encounters. Adding in ally units, new dialogue, new enemies and new structures.
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Modifié par Kiro - 13 : 3/26/2023 1:22:15 AMSo hp gate with extra steps? Forced objective point mid way through I would call a change and good rework. But the boss now goes straight damage immune and health gates so you can go dunk balls. So again how is this not "HP gating with extra steps"?
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[quote]So hp gate with extra steps? Forced objective point mid way through I would call a change and good rework. But the boss now goes straight damage immune and health hates so you can go dunk balls. So again how is this not "HP gating with extra steps"?[/quote] The fight plays out the same as it did when it launched, just you now free ally cabal to fight with you. The health gate was there on launch.
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You're really good at missing the point, huh? I'll make it easy for you: Fixed health gate = bad Possible health gate that can be avoid if you're quick enough = good
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Modifié par Bore : 3/26/2023 3:14:02 AM[quote]You're really good at missing the point, huh? I'll make it easy for you: Fixed health gate = bad Possible health gate that can be avoid if you're quick enough = good[/quote] Hardly a bad thing. The boss fight should be played in it’s entirely, not skipped. There’s no point having a boss at the end if you can instant kill it on the elevator.
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That's fine in higher end difficulty, where you'd be unlikely to one phase the boss anyway, but why do it in low-mid tier difficulty? Those are meant to be quick. Not to mention you could give the boss some new attacks, and just make their helath pool generally larger. Instead, they kept all the same attacks. And having an invincibility phase until you complete some dumb objective isn't good design
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[quote]That's fine in higher end difficulty, where you'd be unlikely to one phase the boss anyway, but why do it in low-mid tier difficulty? Those are meant to be quick. Not to mention you could give the boss some new attacks, and just make their helath pool generally larger. Instead, they kept all the same attacks. And having an invincibility phase until you complete some dumb objective isn't good design[/quote] Except the boss had a low amount of health across the board. The Farms Dealer GM had us killing him on the ride up to the fight, slipping the entire thing. A boss fight should feel like a boss fight. Destiny isn’t exactly known for having good boss fights and having bosses that you can skip entirely wasn’t helping. The change does a lot to make the fight feel more like a fight. While I agree that they could have done more, it is still much better now than it was before. The only strike boss rework to complain about is the lake of shadows fight. They didn’t do anything to it and it is still instantly over. A lot of players don’t even know that the boss in that strike has a tether mechanic.
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It's still not a fight. It's a bullet sponge filled with lackies inbetween health gates. And if they didn't want us to kill the boss on the ride up, they why have the boss peak his head from the top on a slow -blam!- elevator ride instead of launching us through a man cannon like we did at the beginning of the strike. I'll agree that LoS needed a boss health increase, because it was so abysmally low in the first place, but you cannot convince me that escorts and health gates are fun or good
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Modifié par Bore : 3/26/2023 4:04:28 AM[quote]It's still not a fight. It's a bullet sponge filled with lackies inbetween health gates. And if they didn't want us to kill the boss on the ride up, they why have the boss peak his head from the top on a slow -blam!- elevator ride instead of launching us through a man cannon like we did at the beginning of the strike. I'll agree that LoS needed a boss health increase, because it was so abysmally low in the first place, but you cannot convince me that escorts and health gates are fun or good[/quote] A bullet sponge? How is the boss a bullet sponge when you can still instantly bring him to third health? And how can you say the LoS boss needs a health increase when they have about the same amount of health? How is the LoS boss not a bullet sponge and the Farms Dealer is? In terms of health, they’re both push overs, hence the need for a hard health gate to make the fight actually feel like a fight. If they increased the health of the bosses to make it feel like a fight, then you’d just complain about them being bullet sponges. Having gated phases is far better, though I am not opposed to the occasional bullet sponge. Boss fights should feel like boss fights. Hopefully they’ll take a pass at the Warden of Nothing boss fight in the near future. The idea of having the warden throw mini bosses at us during the fight is cool, but pointless when you just kill the Warden the second it enters the arena. That’s not a good boss fight, it’s arguably not even a fight at that point.
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You really want to bog done the speed of the game with more health gates? Thats not a fight, when the boss runs away. Give them all more health, or even have their health scale with difficulty instead of a flat increase so the lower end can be fast and the higher end can be more challenging. And yes, nearly all strike bosses are bullet sponges, because damaging them is the easiest part. They do little to fight back. Bungie is clearly capable of making good fights, such as Rhulk's encounter, and Nezarec to an extent, when his attacks aren't bugging out. However, it seems all their creativity only goes to raid bosses for actual fights
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Modifié par Bore : 3/26/2023 4:20:53 AM[quote]You really want to bog done the speed of the game with more health gates? Thats not a fight, when the boss runs away. Give them all more health, or even have their health scale with difficulty instead of a flat increase so the lower end can be fast and the higher end can be more challenging. And yes, nearly all strike bosses are bullet sponges, because damaging them is the easiest part. They do little to fight back. Bungie is clearly capable of making good fights, such as Rhulk's encounter, and Nezarec to an extent, when his attacks aren't bugging out. However, it seems all their creativity only goes to raid bosses for actual fights[/quote] The fight and strike as a whole is not significantly longer. Boss mechanics and gated phases are far more impactful than just having more health. Though bungie could change the way they visualize gated health to match other games. Overlapping health bars would be far better imo. Feels more like you’ve progressed to another phase rather than having your damage cut off. Especially when it comes to the inverted spire strike. I don’t disagree that bosses could do more, but saying the strike is somehow better when they die instantly is the opposite of that. The strike changes are an improvement, but they’re not perfection. The light blade is probably the only strike boss fight where you really feel like boss is a threat. More bosses should be like that. They shouldn’t be push overs who die instantly. The Farms Dealer boss fight before the rework and the current Warden boss fight we’re played essentially the same. Boss spawns, we instant kill. Bosses should feel like bosses and different bosses should feel like different bosses. Boss fights should feel like boss fights.
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The basic issue you're not getting is that health gates don't make the boss fight a boss fight. Take a look at games outside of destiny and tell me how many use health gates so that the boss can -blam!- off for a few minutes to pad out play time while you take care of add fodder
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Modifié par Bore : 3/26/2023 4:41:13 AM[quote]The basic issue you're not getting is that health gates don't make the boss fight a boss fight. Take a look at games outside of destiny and tell me how many use health gates so that the boss can -blam!- off for a few minutes to pad out play time while you take care of add fodder[/quote] I’ve played plenty of games where the boss will dip mid fight and have you fight hoards of enemies until they return. It’s hardly exclusive to destiny… And again, when bosses die instantly there’s no boss fight. Boss fights should feel like boss fights. Saying that you think that the bosses should do more attacks and what not while also saying that the bosses should be instantly killed does not add up. The lake of shadows boss has a unique tether mechanic. Does that matter? No, you kill the boss instantly and completely skip the fight. If you beef up their health, you’ll cry bullet sponge. If you add health gates, you’ll cry too. Boss fights should feel like boss fights. The bosses should be a threat to you. The changes made to the Farms Dealer boss are an improvement. LoS should have had changes to its boss fight too.
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"Boss fights should feel like boss fights" My brother in -blam!- christ, they still don't feel like boss fights. A boss with a substantial amount of health that actively attacks you isn't just a damage sponge at that point. The ideas are not exclusive from each other. You can have both of those and not put in a health gate to pad out time for poor boss design. Take a moment and do some critical thinking for the love of god
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Modifié par Bore : 3/26/2023 4:57:36 AM[quote]"Boss fights should feel like boss fights" My brother in -blam!- christ, they still don't feel like boss fights. A boss with a substantial amount of health that actively attacks you isn't just a damage sponge at that point. The ideas are not exclusive from each other. You can have both of those and not put in a health gate to pad out time for poor boss design. Take a moment and do some critical thinking for the love of god[/quote] I don’t disagree that a high health target that attacks you would be an improvement. The old version of the strike is still worse than the new one, which is the entire point of this thread. The fight actually feels like a fight now and not just an elevator ride to the chest. The ideal fight is like the shield brothers. Both bosses had health gates that speedsters the different phases of the fight. Each phase felt unique from the other. Arms dealer could use more differences between the phases outside of the number of friendly cabal, but it is still an improvement over the original.
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I am telling you it still does not feel like a fight because the boss isn't there for the majority of it. He -blam!- off and does nothing instead of coming after us. Nothing about that says "this is a fight"
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I'm not saying boss should be instantly killed for higher content, but just for low end.
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Nothing because you weren’t
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