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5/20/2019 6:26:19 PM
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I actually think Bungie’s explanation was perfectly well explained. The only issue people can legitimately grip about is not having enough testing/foresight of their own roadmap to see it coming before hand and therefore prevent from having to nerf in the first place...
But... here is the issue that I don’t believe is actually solvable: Pinnacle gear of any kind, by its name, means it is “better” than anything else. It’s the only reason anyone would be willing to commit the time to acquire it. This means that over time every new piece of gear becomes the only reasonable item to use to be most effective. So when the next update comes along it has to be created with the last pinnacle gear in mind, which makes other gear even MORE less useful, which leads to the next pinnacle gear being even better. This is the power creep they’ve discussed over and over again.
This in turn leads to the inevitable nerf to the best gear to rectify the universe for a little while longer. Bungie basically has to snap their fingers with the Infinity Gauntlet once in a while to reset the universe.
This has always been so and will always be so. Every new “awesome and powerful” item must eventually be brought back to norm or they end up artificially adjusting content like bosses to have to account for every pinnacle weapon or armor in existence.
The only reasonable answer to this is to dumb down the “specialness” options of everything so they could guarantee it wouldn’t break any future content, and that would be major handcuffs to the creative designers. It’d be like having to constrain every new Star Trek series to the canon of the previous series. At some point you break the timeline, add a time travel or alternate reality episode and viola, you have a new series that has no handcuffs and they can get back to good stories and content again.
They may not be perfect at this, but Bungie is trying their best to keep a franchise we all love going so I, for one, won’t begrudge them doing this from time to time.
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Hi, I disagree with you but deeply respect how you laid it out. I particularly appreciate the Star Trek reference. Nice touch and very relatable to your intent. As I said though, I disagree. 1) They didn’t get here by accident. 2) I like where you were going with pinnacle weapons, but, season over season, pinnacle weapons don’t have to creep. Their first problem is that within a season, they are unbalanced. The second problem is that the ones on the high side were outperforming most exotics. But, again, that was on purpose. I really don’t think this power creep trope is healthy for anyone. It assumes something was wrong in the first place. Inherently, by correcting via reduction, it also assumes they don’t have the skill to do otherwise. Neither of these are true, but eventually people are going to start believing it. I should say more people. It’s starting to sound like they designed (or conceptualized) something for the upcoming season a long time ago. And now, it’s a round peg for a square sandbox. That’s not our fault, and if they’d spent more time communicating, and more resources developing post Forsaken, instead of nerfing progression and tossing us Gambit scraps (save the lore), they’d not be getting so much angst.
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Appreciate the feedback... I agree they didn’t get here “by accident”, but the issues of perfect balance across all classes, abilities, weapon loadouts, mods, etc seems an impossible task to me over 4 years of development and changing sandboxes. Maybe it could be better than it is now but it would require soooo much investment and time by the devs it would completely hurt their ability to create and release new content faster. Let’s face it... if they had so much new content coming out you had lots to do and needed to change up your loadouts/abilities a lot we wouldn’t even be talking about 3 weapon nerfs and a few exotic armor nerfs. This stems more to me from the massive scrutiny a couple million people have over a relatively limited amount of content this time in the lifecycle. I mean, we get 1 new exotic weapon in 3 months and it HAS to be god-like for anyone to care (which guarantees it’s broken later). Plus people have nothing else to focus on. Every YouTuber out there just works on beating their previous best times on the same stuff, finding exploits/cheese, broken areas of the map, etc. I’d much rather Bungie just focus on creating new content more/faster and not worry about enraged gamers about a relatively small number of weapons/armor pieces. I do agree they likely made these changes because of upcoming content their testing team said “Whoa, gotta do something about x or our new release is done in 1 week”. But that’s the nature of creating a universe we want to stay open and evolving over time. I’m all in for that vs a Super Mario World coming out once every 5 years on cartridge with zero updates.
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I think we want the same things. I just think we disagree how to get there. I wish I could adopt your philosophy. I was there not long ago, but no longer. Cheers for the chat!
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Fair enough!
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Well said. Another issue they need is for weapons/gear to expire. Maybe a dlc / season weapons have a 1yr lifespan and no longer can move forward. This adds value to the new weapons and gear instead of just keep upgrading that one HC, shotgun,...etc.
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Yea I’m conflicted on the whole limited time for weapons and such. It would technically “work”, but it definitely hurts the idea of your time invested carrying over and getting attached to certain things you acquired for nostalgia. It was the biggest grip in moving from D1 to D2 where our vaults blew up, lol. The “finger snap” concept I was referring to was meant to be more of a “rebalancing” act than complete starting over lol.
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Modifié par TheArtist : 5/20/2019 6:32:22 PMNonsense on stilts. There were a dozen other ways Bungie could have addressed this issue. They just took the easiest way out, and the player experience could just go screw itself. Bungie basically BROKE the toy trains because people weren't playing with the blocks. They'll probably be successful in getting people to play with the blocks...but it WON"T make playing with them any more enjoyable. So the level of anger and frustration will just keep going up.
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What’s wrong with taking the easiest way when balancing resources across multiple platforms, future content, maintenance? ...and... given we have numerous (that means far more than a dozen) ways to be powerful, I don’t buy the power fantasy being hurt by these small changes in the big picture frankly.
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Modifié par TheArtist : 5/20/2019 7:25:24 PM[quote]What’s wrong with taking the easiest way when balancing resources across multiple platforms, future content, maintenance?[/quote] When you're community is happy, and you're buying time you need for a more comprehensive fix? Nothing. But when your community (customers) are mad at you in record numbers...and you've strained their patience to the breaking point because you are ignoring some of the game's biggest and most persistent problems? OH my GOD is that a tone deaf move. So tone deaf, that I knew this explosion was coming when I saw the first videos about how far-ranging the nerfs were going to be. [quote]...and... given we have numerous (that means far more than a dozen) ways to be powerful, [/quote] What ways....precisely? Before you answer that question, be aware that our Guardians are STILL underpowered compared to what we were in D1..... ....and Rampage is basically 'Crowd Control" from D1. A perk that no one ever got excited for.
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Numerous in the fact there is literally zero content that is challenging for a 700 Power level Guardian of any class, using just about any weapon combination in the game (and they have hundreds of weapons). I’d grant Zero Hour Heroic as being challenging right now.
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Modifié par TheArtist : 5/20/2019 7:44:18 PMThat’s not what motivates people to play these games. If that’s what you want, go play [i]World of Warcraft [/i] or [i]Dark Souls.[/i] If you think [i]challenge[/i] is what these games are about, go play Diablo 3 as Necromancer. You are so [i]stupidly[/i] powerful, I was practically giggling in exhilaration watching things blow up on screen. And you know what? [i]It was FUN!![/i] Ya know that thing you look for in a game when someone isn’t looking for a reason to feel superior to others? The whole point of games like this is that they are SUPPOSED to get easier as you level up and gear up. That’s the game’s only [i]reward.[/i]
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I think you hit the nail on the head and people are in different camps there: “Supposed to get easier as you get more powerful” equals old stale content you stop playing to many people, while others might actually numbingly go in and wipe the same boss 1000 times. “Challenge and require knowledge, teamwork, and puzzle solving skills along with physical skill to achieve what you couldn’t before” also become stale once you solved the problem at hand, but is more replay-able because of the physical skill side involved. It’s why PvP is considered by many to be the end game after the end game. It is never the same every time because humans are on the other side of the screen. I believe this is why the Gambit experiment is happening, to create more of a PvEvP because it is more uncharted territory and MIGHT fill void.
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Modifié par TheArtist : 5/21/2019 9:30:30 AMWhich is why I made the post. Loot-based rpg gamers are POWER FANTASY GAMERS. But Bungie clearly can’t stand to see us be powerful for any length of time. So it begs the question, “Why build a loot game when you clearly can’t stand to play by their rules, and don’t want to reward the player with [i]power?[/i] Loot games are not for people who bore easily, or define [i]fun[/i] as games being [i]difficult.[/i] If you do you are playing the wrong kind of game. And pvp is poison to the power fantasy unless you’re content to see it be a contest of build strength.
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I get your points... but you’ve made assumptions and drawn lines in the sand for a genre as well as what people “want” that clearly isn’t how EVERYONE thinks. To say ALL gamers play loot based games for the power fantasy is an overstep in my opinion. I, and the people I play with, joined this Destiny universe BECAUSE it combined so many things into one game... it can’t be said Destiny is “this or that” genre only. It combines many game types into one and the last 4 years has included the struggle to balance them all (I’ve been there since the beginning). I, and those I play with, don’t want Destiny to be limited in its focus or it will simply be another clone of those games that came before it. I’ll take missteps every 3-4 months like this all year, every year, as long as it stays apart from being just another RPG, or just another COD, or just another WoW, etc.
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Modifié par TheArtist : 5/21/2019 3:32:10 PM[quote]I get your points... but you’ve made assumptions and drawn lines in the sand for a genre as well as what people “want” that clearly isn’t how EVERYONE thinks.[/quote] No. I'm simply dealing with the fact that all games have RULES. In games like baseball and football, those rules are formalized and written down. Video game genres have rules as well. The problem is that those rule are NOT written down. They are established by years of industry practice and confirmed by decades of consumers voting with their play time and their wallets....and these form the foundation of consumer expectations regarding game design. I'm not "making assumptions". I'm calling attention to the Elephant In The Living Room, and pointing out what the unwritten rules are of loot games.....and where Bungie is breaking those rules. Each place where you see REALLY angry and frustrated with Bungie is a place where Bungie is breaking those rules....because they find it inconvenient to have to play by them. ...and, just like in any game where one party refuses to play by the established rules, everyone else in the game gets frustrated and angry. This explosion is because Bungie is violating multiple rules....and is largely ignoring player complaints about the rule-breaking. The rule last weeks' TWAB violated is that Player Investment Will Be Rewarded With Power. ....and if power does need to be taken away from the player for the purposes of game tuning....its generally done by SUNSETTING gear. IOW, by leaving the gear BEHIND. Not by taking it....breaking it over a knee...and handing them back to the pieces. What Bungie is doing may be acceptable to players of shooter games, it is NOT acceptable to players of loot-based games....which is why people are so mad.
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I agree with this concept of the unwritten rule about “time invested will bring power”. I don’t think it’s limited to looters but I agree with it (COD, Battlefield etc all do the same thing as your time invested levels up weapons or components of those weapons). I also agree sunsetting is the best way to handle it in most cases. No one likes to invest 100s of hours into something that turns out to be whacked later (vault blew up), unless you are into trophy based accomplishments. It’s just too hard to say it’ll never happen. No contracts were signed when I bought the game as I recall. How could you foresee every perk you create accidentally breaks the game or a new raid 2 years from now? I’ve been in software development for 34 years, it’s not easy to plan for every negative use case. I’m ok with some of this happening from time to time and re-writing these unwritten rules on a couple weapons like they have... and not screaming in the forums about it.
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[quote]No one likes to invest 100s of hours into something that turns out to be whacked later (vault blew up), unless you are into trophy based accomplishments.[/quote] That's Bungie....once again....indulging shooter gamer mentality. Loot-gamres don't bond with their gear. They bond with their characters. Because they know at some point....that gear is going to get taken away. Part of the reason why Bungie is doing this is because they refuse to nut up and take stuff away from people directly. So they take it away indirectly through Enhancement cores....and nerfing stuff into the ground so you let go of it "voluntarily". [quote]How could you foresee every perk you create accidentally breaks the game or a new raid 2 years from now?[/quote] Adequate testing....and being familiar with how your players actually play this game in the wild. Both of which Bungie tends not to do. [quote]I’m ok with some of this happening from time to time and re-writing these unwritten rules on a couple weapons like they have... and not screaming in the forums about it.[/quote] This explosion is about the nerfs. These nerfs are simply the STRAW that broke the back of the community. What you're hearing is 8 months of accumulated frustration and rage at Bungie breaking those rules, and ignoring the kind of play experience they are allowing this game to lapse into....that people finally just lost it. To do this when they did was completely tone deaf....and another disrespectufl act. Disrespectful of the bad condition this game is in right now....and Bungie's responsibility in having that happen.
