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2/21/2014 5:21:51 PM
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There's one quote the Didact said that I never got.
[i]"I stand before you. Accused of the sin of ensuring Forerunner ascendancy. Of attempting to save us from this fate where we are forced to… recede…"[/i]
What made his actions a sin?
English
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Edited by Falchion: 2/22/2014 12:22:54 AM[quote] [i]"I stand before you. Accused of the sin of ensuring Forerunner ascendancy. Of attempting to save us from this fate where we are forced to… recede…"[/i] [/quote] In Silentium, it was stated that the Didact used the Composer to compose living humans on Erde-Tyrene(violating the Mantle) to turn them into Knights, to defeat the Flood. We think that the speech at the end is himself on trial, somewhere still maintained by Forerunners (as LoA stated) At the same time he thought it'd be nice to get rid of a majority of the human population so that the Forerunners may continue to serve the Mantle. If the humans maintained the mantle, Forerunners would be forced to "recede". Later the Librarian thinks he went insane so she sticks him in a Cryptum surrounded with his creations that we later find in Halo 4.
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Lore fans are accepting that the Didact survived and is on trial at some location. Put on trial by who? We don't know. It could be the Forerunners who went on the Great Journey or high ranking ancillas. Essentially though, he is being damned by the tribunal for trying to assert Forerunner dominance through the enslavement and destruction of mankind.
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Edited by adamj004: 2/21/2014 5:56:50 PMI thought that when didact was speaking his case (at the end of the game) that was before everything happened, like hundreds of thousands of years a go, I thought him speaking at that part was the trial that resulted in him being imprisoned into the cryptum.
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There was no trial for that. The Librarian simply knocked him out and placed him in the Combat Cryptum. The context of what he says in the epilogue doesn't line up with what happened 100,000 years ago either. [i]"We squander eons in the darkness while they seize our triumphs for their own!"[/i] That just does not fit at all in the past but works perfectly in the context of what happened in Halo 4.
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If there wasn't a trial then how do these quotes from the Librarian make any sense? "When the Didact finally exhausted the humans after a millennia, his sentence was severe." "He would have encrypted your entire race if we had not removed the Composer from his care and imprisoned him here." Librarian, Reclaimer cut scene At first I thought she was referring to his imprisonment in the cryptum on Erde-Tyrene but that obviously doesn't fit with 'imprisoned him here' since they are speaking on Requiem. As far as context not matching 100,000 years ago: if he was speaking in the present about the past wouldn't he have said "We squandered eons... while they seized..."? In fact the only things he mentions in the past tense are how the "roots of the galaxy have grown" and "the wisdom of our countless generations has saturated the soil" under the "impervious shelter" of the Forerunners. If they have been absent for the past 100,000 years how have they grown or sheltered anything in our galaxy? On the other side, 100,000 years ago they were directly responsible for the growth of the galaxy. The Didact also says in his speech that "Humanity stands as the greatest threat in the galaxy". 100,000 years ago when he tried to eradicate humanity this was his stance. Yet when he is awoken from the cryptum he stats that man has not yet attained the mantle like it's a surprise to him. "Your ascendance may yet be prevented. Time was your ally, human, but now it has abandoned you." In his speech in the epilogue he mentions how refusing to eradicate humanity is a "fool's gambit". Where in Halo 4 do Forerunners almost eradicate all of humanity? There are many contradicting statements about whether this speech takes place in the present or the past. Until another book or game speaks directly to it I don't see how we as a community can definitively say one way or the other.
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[quote]"When the Didact finally exhausted the humans after a millennia, his sentence was severe."[/quote]Yeah, the Didact's sentence to Humanity. He did dismantle their civilization after all. [quote]"He would have encrypted your entire race if we had not removed the Composer from his care and imprisoned him here." Librarian, Reclaimer cut scene[/quote]How is that a problem? She was referring to 100,000 years ago when the Didact composed Humanity in an effort to halt the Flood at the end of the war. [quote]At first I thought she was referring to his imprisonment in the cryptum on Erde-Tyrene but that obviously doesn't fit with 'imprisoned him here' since they are speaking on Requiem.[/quote]She's talking about the Human-Forerunner War, and then after the war during the Forerunner-Flood War. [quote]As far as context not matching 100,000 years ago: if he was speaking in the present about the past wouldn't he have said "We squandered eons... while they seized..."? In fact the only things he mentions in the past tense are how the "roots of the galaxy have grown" and "the wisdom of our countless generations has saturated the soil" under the "impervious shelter" of the Forerunners.[/quote]Because the 'squandering' and 'seizing' is still going on. It's not like the Forerunners are like, "Hey were back everyone!" Neither are the Humans like, "Guys! We got all the Forerunner tech!" Those are referenced in past tense because he's referring to the past when Forerunners were dominant. [quote]Yet when he is awoken from the cryptum he stats that man has not yet attained the mantle like it's a surprise to him. "Your ascendance may yet be prevented. Time was your ally, human, but now it has abandoned you."[/quote]Yeah, because the Librarian is really good at making plans. He's genuinely surprised because he expected us to be more of a threat. [quote]In his speech in the epilogue he mentions how refusing to eradicate humanity is a "fool's gambit". Where in Halo 4 do Forerunners almost eradicate all of humanity?[/quote]Because if you weren't paying attention he also said, "Accused of the sin of assuring Forerunner ascendancy." It's pretty damn obvious from his line that his tribunal does not want humanity eradicated. If this was something he said after Humanity's defeat, it wouldn't make any sense. Why? Because the Ecumene Council was advocating for our extinction. The only Forerunners who defended us were Warrior-Servants with respect for fallen enemies and the Lifeworkers. [quote]There are many contradicting statements about whether this speech takes place in the present or the past. Until another book or game speaks directly to it I don't see how we as a community can definitively say one way or the other.[/quote]Not really. If you have read the Forerunner Saga the context becomes even clearer than it should already be.
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My point in quoting the Librarian was that she mentions 'we' as who prevented the Didact's use of the Composer and imprisoned him on Requiem. Just because we don't specifically see a trial doesn't mean that one never happened. The squandering and seizing are still going on and have been going on for over 100,000 years. This does not point to the Didact's dialogue happening either now or then. It could just as easily be him speaking about what is to come because they chose to leave humans alive. "the Ecumene Council was advocating for our extinction" When was this? If the Forerunners wanted us extinct, why aren't we? My point is that when the Didact says their refusal to eradicate (not defeat) means that humanity was on the brink of extinction. This does not happen at the end of Halo 4. It happened at the end of the war. "I stand before you. Accused of the sin of ensuring Forerunner ascendancy. Of attempting to save us from this fate where we are forced to… recede…" What fate was he trying to save them from? When did Forerunners recede at the end of Halo 4? Please don't take my questions so personally. Statements like "if you weren't paying attention" and "it's pretty damn obvious" lead me to believe you think I am somehow attacking your views. I'm not. I'm just trying to engage in a discussion about Halo lore because that's what got me playing the game all those years ago. I did read the Forerunner Saga and it only confused things because if you just play the game you get a single Didact whereas if you read the books it explains there were really two. Regardless of how any of us think 343 did an amazing job (or crappy job) with the story of Halo 4 the fact that so many people have differing viewpoints about what exactly happened means we need to be discussing to get to the bottom of things.
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[quote]My point in quoting the Librarian was that she mentions 'we' as who prevented the Didact's use of the Composer and imprisoned him on Requiem.[/quote]That 'we' comes from the fact a Warrior-Servant called Endurance assisted the Librarian. [quote] Just because we don't specifically see a trial doesn't mean that one never happened.[/quote]If there was a trial, it would involve extensive retcons. Silentium covers every single moment of the Didact's imprisonment and then afterwards. Nothing of a council. Heck, he was placed in his Cryptum unconscious. Then there's also the fact that what was left of the Ecumene Council was atomized by Precursor Star Roads. [quote]The squandering and seizing are still going on and have been going on for over 100,000 years. This does not point to the Didact's dialogue happening either now or then. It could just as easily be him speaking about what is to come because they chose to leave humans alive.[/quote]If it was before the firing of the array, then he would have said "We [i]will[/i] squander eons in the darkness." Why? Because we were at a paleolithic state. We saw the Forerunners as godlike at the time and didn't even know how to operate technology beyond steam engines. We can't really do much reclaiming then. [quote]"the Ecumene Council was advocating for our extinction" When was this? If the Forerunners wanted us extinct, why aren't we?[/quote]Because the Librarian invoked the Mantle on the Ecumene council and spared Humanity in an attempt to discover the cure to the Flood we found. [quote]My point is that when the Didact says their refusal to eradicate (not defeat) means that humanity was on the brink of extinction.[/quote]I'm sorry, but where in the hell does the eradicate imply that something was close to defeat? I could say we're going to eradicate all mosquitoes in the world, does that suddenly mean they're almost extinct? [quote]This does not happen at the end of Halo 4. It happened at the end of the war.[/quote]No, not really. You see, you know so little about what happened during that time, yet you're acting like you know it all. Where does anything even say that humanity was close to extinction at the end of the Human-Forerunner War? Nothing does. The only time we truly came close to extinction was when the Didact Composed the majority of humans remaining, leaving only a couple hundred thousand left alive anywhere. [quote]"I stand before you. Accused of the sin of ensuring Forerunner ascendancy. Of attempting to save us from this fate where we are forced to… recede…" What fate was he trying to save them from? When did Forerunners recede at the end of Halo 4?[/quote]I don't know, maybe because the Didact was advocating to rise up again, and his tribunal disagreed? [quote]"if you weren't paying attention" and "it's pretty damn obvious" lead me to believe you think I am somehow attacking your views. I'm not. I'm just trying to engage in a discussion about Halo lore because that's what got me playing the game all those years ago.[/quote]I see no such thing. I'm simply frustrated because it's cut clear in stone when it takes place. [quote]I did read the Forerunner Saga[/quote]Then you need to re-read it. [quote] it only confused things because if you just play the game you get a single Didact whereas if you read the books it explains there were really two.[/quote]That shouldn't be a problem at all. Silentium explains the fates of both Didacts. Even before Silentium came out, Greg Bear himself confirmed the Didact in Halo 4 was the original one.
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[quote]My point in quoting the Librarian was that she mentions 'we' as who prevented the Didact's use of the Composer and imprisoned him on Requiem. [/quote] right. [quote]Just because we don't specifically see a trial doesn't mean that one never happened.[/quote] i don't really see where onyx said anything that contradicts your assumption on an observational basis. [quote]The squandering and seizing are still going on and have been going on for over 100,000 years. [/quote] ... how? what forerunner possessions were the humans seizing, exactly, and how were the forerunners squandering in the darkness during that time? [quote]This does not point to the Didact's dialogue happening either now or then. [/quote] sure it does. [quote]It could just as easily be him speaking about what is to come because they chose to leave humans alive.[/quote] no it can't. active voice means that it's [i]happening.[/i] [quote]"the Ecumene Council was advocating for our extinction" When was this? [/quote] forerunner saga. [quote]If the Forerunners wanted us extinct, why aren't we? [/quote] they don't just snap their fingers and immediately kill off an entire race. in addition, the librarian was still on our side. [quote]My point is that when the Didact says their refusal to eradicate (not defeat) means that humanity was on the brink of extinction. [/quote] erm... how does that evidence your case in any way? indeed, it [i]supports[/i] the other way as the didact never wanted to eradicate humanity. he thought the punishment was the perfect fit [citation: charum hakkor terminal in halo 4]. it's certainly not due to his actions against the humans prior to the first composer firing. [quote]This does not happen at the end of Halo 4.[/quote] except for the whole "i'm the didact in my invincible 300 km long spaceship and i will eradicate humanity with no regrets now that i'm off the hook" thing we had going on all throughout halo 4. [quote]It happened at the end of the war.[/quote] *also happened. it doesn't make any sense at all otherwise. [quote]"I stand before you. Accused of the sin of ensuring Forerunner ascendancy. Of attempting to save us from this fate where we are forced to… recede…" What fate was he trying to save them from? [/quote] the fate the forerunners are [i]at right now.[/i] no longer the bearers of the mantle, presumably hiding in an extragalactic area, [i]pretty much extinct,[/i] etc. [quote]When did Forerunners recede at the end of Halo 4?[/quote] he is talking about forerunner fate in general. he wants to save the forerunners from the fate that they are experiencing right now, hence "[b]this[/b] fate" where they're forced to recede. [quote]Regardless of how any of us think 343 did an amazing job (or crappy job) with the story of Halo 4 the fact that so many people have differing viewpoints about what exactly happened means we need to be discussing to get to the bottom of things.[/quote] right, but in this case there's only evidence for one side and no evidence for the other. :P
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I thought I was having a discussion with LoA...
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super duper sorry, i just like jumping on stuff XD carry on [but keep my points in mind; and reply if you wish]
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[quote]If there wasn't a trial then how do these quotes from the Librarian make any sense?[/quote] they make perfect sense. [quote]"When the Didact finally exhausted the humans after a millennia, his sentence was severe."[/quote] yes, the sentence that [b]he[/b] [i]gave the humans.[/i] [quote]"He would have encrypted your entire race if we had not removed the Composer from his care and imprisoned him here." Librarian, Reclaimer cut scene[/quote] that quote isn't directly relevant to the previous one and comes a few lines after it iirc. [quote]At first I thought she was referring to his imprisonment in the cryptum on Erde-Tyrene but that obviously doesn't fit with 'imprisoned him here' since they are speaking on Requiem.[/quote] they were certainly referring to his imprisonment on requiem. [quote]As far as context not matching 100,000 years ago: if he was speaking in the present about the past wouldn't he have said "We squandered eons... while they seized..."? [/quote] ... no. the active voice can show how he's on trial with the rest of the forerunners right [i]now[/i] and how humanity continues to utilize and study forerunner tech. [quote]In fact the only things he mentions in the past tense are how the "roots of the galaxy have grown" and "the wisdom of our countless generations has saturated the soil" under the "impervious shelter" of the Forerunners. [/quote] ... right. [quote]If they have been absent for the past 100,000 years how have they grown or sheltered anything in our galaxy? [/quote] metaphor for their technology and the profound effect it has had on other societies. [quote]On the other side, 100,000 years ago they were directly responsible for the growth of the galaxy.[/quote] and they still are now, given the librarian's involvement and the way pretty much every race is all "omg forerunner artifacts gimme gimme gimme" [quote]The Didact also says in his speech that "Humanity stands as the greatest threat in the galaxy". [/quote] yes, they're the only direct threat to forerunners and their mantle tending-iness [quote]100,000 years ago when he tried to eradicate humanity this was his stance. [/quote] right. [quote]Yet when he is awoken from the cryptum he stats that man has not yet attained the mantle like it's a surprise to him. [/quote] certainly. he realizes there's still a chance for forerunner dominance again, which is what his entire motives are in halo 4 and almost certainly still are post-halo 4. "the mantle of responsibility for the galaxy shelters all, human, but only the forerunners are its masters." [quote]"Your ascendance may yet be prevented. Time was your ally, human, but now it has abandoned you." In his speech in the epilogue he mentions how refusing to eradicate humanity is a "fool's gambit". Where in Halo 4 do Forerunners almost eradicate all of humanity?[/quote] erm, what? A) there's nothing saying that they [i]did[/i] almost do it. didact is mentioning how opposing his actions is foolish. B) if it wasn't for chief, didact would have been unstoppable and humanity would be digitized toast, so there's that. [quote]There are many contradicting statements about whether this speech takes place in the present or the past. [/quote] not at all. [quote]Until another book or game speaks directly to it I don't see how we as a community can definitively say one way or the other.[/quote] i do.
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All you've done is reply with your opinions. I could do the same to all your opinions and then we could go back and forth until some new source material comes out and sheds more light on this topic. Thanks for your reply
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You really, really, [u]really[/u] did not pay attention to anything in the Forerunner Saga. Everything you asked had a direct answer in each of the books, and I'm trying to contemplate whether you're joking or not.
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[quote]All you've done is reply with your opinions. [/quote] except in an objective setting, we have to take the stance i'm representing as it works with the least amount of assumptions/contradictions and most concrete data/thematic relevance. [quote]I could do the same to all your opinions and then we could go back and forth until some new source material comes out and sheds more light on this topic.[/quote] ... okay. remind me to bump this thread to say "i told you so" in the future.
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So what the didact was saying at the end of Halo 4 was basically at the present time? If so that's interesting I wonder who captured him.
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Ah, OK. That makes sense and makes me curious.
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trying to destroy the human race I'd assume.
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This. But specifically because it goes against the Mantle of Responsibility. If the Forerunners were responsible for the care and safety of all other sentient lifeforms then the Didact's use of the Composer on humanity violated that responsibility. Hence he was accused of a sin.
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Yeah, that's what I meant, just with more words.
