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1/4/2015 8:12:33 PM
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I can't understand why people are so fascinated with the whole "traveler is the enemy" theory. That storyline would essentially be the plot line to the Tom Cruise movie Oblivion... (Plot twist, you're actually working for the bad guys!) Yeah, that is pretty lame.
There is far more evidence to support the theory that we are the "good guys" than there is that we are "bad." Everything from the grimoire to express statements from Bungie (i.e., as to the actions of the traveler, how much it helped humanity, etc...).
I mean, just look at the Hive as an example. Do they look like they're the "good guys"? No, they look like the archetypal "bad guys". Consider the following:
1. The Temple of Crota is littered with bones (human bones, probably). Thralls eat from these piles! Dark dungeons filled with bones and cannibalistic enemies are hardly indicative of "good guy status."
2. When you start the DB raid you are literally burdened by "the weight of [u]darkness[/u]," and the only way to cleanse yourself of it is by standing in the light. (Come on, this one is pretty obvious.)
3. They try to profane a shard of the traveler (by "draining it of it's [u]light[/u].")
Also, ghosts come from the traveler. Therefore, if the traveler is evil so is your ghost. Dinklebot is your companion throughout the game and a primary character. Yeah, non way he's going to turn out to be bad.
What about the Vex? A race of hive minded machines hell bent on not only killing the people of Earth but also erasing them from time/existence all together. Every man, woman and child for the simple fact that they belong to said group (Genocide much?). Yes, truly these things are the paragons of good...
English
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Edited by DisturbedShifty: 1/17/2015 12:00:12 AMSorry. Meant to reply to the entire thread not just yours.
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From about 90% of your post, you assume that because the Hive are evil, and we fight them, that means we're good. The Hive are the only ones confirmed to have been corrupted and twisted by the darkness. As far as the Vex are concerned (who may or may not be the human race in the future), they may merely be trying to correct the humanity's mistake. You also assume that YOU (the guardian) are inherently good. And therefore since you are good, and your ghost "helps" you, your ghost can't be bad. Let's look at the facts as we know them. 1. The Darkness left us alone until the Traveler showed up. 2. He shows up, gives us all crazy tech, with which we unlock the secrets of the universe. 3. Enter the Darkness. Humanity was sacrificed by Rasputin (a warmind built with the Traveler's golden technology) to protect the Traveler. 4. We were extinct (or very near it). The Traveler sends out ghosts to revive his undead army in an attempt to protect and restore himself. 5. Now we are on a rampage throughout the galaxy to commit mass genocide against the Traveler's enemies. Our ghost guides us through this. Sure, our ghost brought us back to life, but humanity was already extinct. What was left to protect but the Traveler? Now, we have no lives, only to kill enemies that we never had before the Traveler showed up. Some resurrection. Thanks, Dinklebot. It seems the awoken in the Reef are the only ones that know everything that actually went down, and they are extremely hesitant to help us. As you can see, there is a TON of merit to the theory that the Traveler is evil (and by extension, so are its ghosts and guardians).
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Edited by Ronin Tanuki: 1/16/2015 8:51:58 PMThe Hive was just a brief example, if I started listing all the evidence I'd be here a long while. Read the grimoire and it's constant use of the terms "light" and "darkness." Plenty of evidence there. Specifically refer to the cards concerning guardians, ghosts, and our enemies. Anything called the side of "light," specially in a fantasy genre, surely cannot be the "bad guys." Nomenclature alone is heavily for the argument we aren't the antagonist. *EDIT* I started a topic a while ago, but it was lost in the forums. I'll post it here, if you'll excuse the lengt, lol: [quote]The whole "we are the darkness" and "the traveler is evil" theory is cool and all, but it really doesn't have a leg to stand on. Practically all of the evidence we are presented with during the game points to us being the side of "light" and the enemy being "the darkness." Think Star Wars, Jedi vs Sith (Light side of the Force vs Dark Side$. [b][u]Guardians fight with and for the light against the darkness[/u][/b] Nomenclature alone should be enough to convince you where each side stands. Fighting for the "light "obviously implies the side of "good," while affiliation with the "darkness" implies being "evil." At various points during the story we are shown that guardians are on the side of light. Examples of this include, the very first mission on the moon, the Dark Beyond (where a Titan's ghost is being drained of it's [u]light[/u] by the Hive), and our first conversation with the Exo stranger on Venus (where she says, "unlike you, I wasn't forged in [u]light[/u]"). [b][u]The Grimoire establishes Guardians and Ghosts are warriors of the light[/u][/b] Further evidence can be found in the form of the grimoire. Opening the grimoire and selecting "guardian," then "classes" reveals supporting evidence that we fight with/for the light. For example, you can click on "guardians" and the description reads "guardians are warriors forged in the travelers light, a final hope in a universe falling into darkness." Or, "...guardians are those rare few able to wield the light as a weapon." There are, of course, numerous other parts of the grimoire that support guardians wielding the light as well as ghosts being made of the light. In fact, only a very cursory glance of the grimoire can yield this information. For the sake of brevity in what is already a rather long post we will skip over that. [b][u]Your very armor illustrates you wield the light[/u][/b] The simple act of opening your inventory and hovering your cursor over an armor piece of blue quality or higher reveals that it is imbued with light. The same result can be achieved if you hover the cursor over your level (where it indicates your particular light level). If our armor is imbued with light and our class abilities are powered by light then we clearly bear (and are) warriors of the light. As established above, the formula in Destiny is quite simple light equals "good" and "darkness" equals bad. [b][u]Trying to establish the Traveler is evil requires conjecture, speculation, and going against the weight of the evidence[/u][/b] In conclusion, the very brief examples illustrated above should show that the clear weight of the evidence leans more heavily towards guardians and the traveler being on the side of good. The story itself, the grimoire, and practically all aspects of the game point to this fact. Let's suppose that this argument (the whole traveler good/bad?) was being presented in a court of law. That is to say, that there was an evidentiary burden of proof that had to be met. The most likely standard employed would be the civil standard of "preponderance of the evidence," as it would be unfair to apply the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard used in criminal. The preponderance of the evidence standard essentially translates into 51%. A side has to show that it is 51% more likely of something being a certain way than not. That is to say, that it is more likely than not. The evidence in Destiny supporting the theory that the guardians and the traveler fight for the side of good meets this standard. It is more likely than not that we are the good guys. Therefore, the weight of the evidence is in our favor.[/quote]
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You've put together some good stuff there. And a lot of thought into it. I can appreciate that. But I am not arguing the point that we are made of light, or draw power from light. That much is very clear. What I am saying is that we are doing an evil bidding. We are light because we are SUPPOSED to be doing good. What we are doing though is very much in the interest of the Traveler, who may very well be evil. The fact that we can use light does not make us good. For example, the Heart of Crota grimoire. The wizard is pulling the light from Omar and feeding off it. Also, Crota's sword steals light. I think both the light and darkness are forces to be used, not necessarily an indicator of which side you are on. I know it is only a visual representation and could be taken as something trivial, but Fallen spew white light from their head when they die from a headshot. Fallen aren't necessarily evil, because they (some) are fighting on the side of the queen. Light as a visual representation is also used in that Heart of Crota card. There has been nothing to indicate (that I have seen) that the fallen are either evil or good. I had some other points to make too, but I seem to be losing the ability to put together coherent thoughts lol. I'll revisit this later if you're still willing, I enjoy the debate.
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Hmm, it's true that we don't really know the motivations of the Fallen or the Cabal. I think the case is more clear cut that the Vex and the Hive are clearly "bad," though. Evidence is presented throughout the game of the Vex and Hive affiliation with the darkness. Evidence for the Vex being agents of the darkness is "the back garden" mission on Mars. You know, the one where we fight the "heart" that they're worshiping. Evidence for the Hive is pretty much every encounter (Chamber of Night, Shrine of Oryx, The Dark Below, etc...). Regardless of whether the Fallen and the Cabal are "evil" or not, it is clear that they are our enemies. That is to say, we are engaged in a war against them. This means the LOACs are applicable (Laws of Armed Conflict). This is important with regards to your comment (at least I think it was you) regarding genocide. You see, genocide is, essentially, the unlawful killing or causing of serious bodily harm to two or more members of a group (i.e., race, ethnicity, religion, etc...) with the intent to destroy the group, in whole or in part. We, as guardians are not killing Fallen, Cabal, Hive, or Vex based in their affiliation to those groups. We also don't intend to destroy their group "in whole or in part." We kill them because we are at war with them. Normally, killing is unlawful. Under certain limited circumstances, however, killing becomes lawful. For example, in a criminal law context you can kill someone in self-defense if they were trying to kill you (lethal force). Similarly, under the LOACs, you can kill members of the "enemy" for the duration of the conflict. (Ergo, a soldier in an armed conflict does not commit "murder.") I would venture a guess and say that the Fallen and the Cabal don't follow the laws of war. We're not really presented with enough evidence of this fact, however. We can assume, for example, that Fallen would readily kill civilians and non-combatants, but we've never seen them do so. How they've comporting themselves in this war would be a very good argument as to whether they are "bad" or "good."
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All I should have to say is Star Wars. shit, the good guys are heroes long enough to see themselves become to villains. Darth Vader? Anyway. Whatever.
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Edited by Ronin Tanuki: 1/16/2015 8:50:30 PMStar wars is a great example. The Force has a "light" and a "darkness." You can't argue that the dark side is the good side. Darth Vader was a Jedi and he turned into a sith.
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All I should have to say is Star Wars. shit, the good guys are heroes long enough to see themselves become to villains. Darth Vader? Anyway. Whatever.
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Have you ever been in a 'warzone'? One of the places the multiple factions clash against eachother in increasingly rediculous strength? The agents of 'darkness constantly fight each other. Would it be so hard to believe that the Fallen or Cabal are the bad guys are evil? Sure, the Devil's Layer is filled with bones. You know what GUARDIANS WEAR? Bones. NOT ONLY THAT, but why the hell would FIVE hyper-powerful civilizations chase after something BENEVOLENT?
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Edited by Ronin Tanuki: 1/16/2015 7:19:50 PMWhy would they chase the traveler? How about the archetypal good vs evil that is common place in this type of story. In other words because they're the bad guys and they want to taken over (think LoTR, why do the Orcs/Sauron fight the races of middle earth). It's pretty clear this is what's going on in Destiny. The nomenclature alone should alert you. "Light" vs "Dark," in what world is the side of "light" the bad? Or, how about the fact that the traveler is filled to the brim with light? I mean, just look at what it does to us guardians (makes us super human). Yeah, that's some pretty good stuff and they want it. In fact, as I already mentioned, they "drain" the light from stuff for personal use. Do you see us using the darkness? Hmm, another huge clue. As a matter of fact look at Eris, she used the darkness. Look how that worked out for her. Ask Eris who is good and who is bad. Or ask Kabr. Sacrificing for the greater good is what the "good guys" do in stories. Noble sacrifice is not very common amongst "evil" types.
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Have you ever been in a 'warzone'? One of the places the multiple factions clash against eachother in increasingly rediculous strength? The agents of 'darkness constantly fight each other. Would it be so hard to believe that the Fallen or Cabal are the bad guys are evil? Sure, the Devil's Layer is filled with bones. You know what GUARDIANS WEAR? Bones. NOT ONLY THAT, but why the hell would FIVE hyper-powerful civilizations chase after something BENEVOLENT?
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The exo stranger even said the vex are so evil it despises other evil. So tyere no way they couod be good lol
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That still lines up with the theory that humanity produced the Vex (or as Kabr said, they ARE us.. They have human souls). Therefore, if we are the bad guys (a zombie army brought forth to commit mass genocide on the traveler's enemies), this would still make complete sense.
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Do you think that the people that we consider evil also consider themselves to be evil? Highly doubtful. Granted, I believe it is far more likely that we are the good guys than the bad guys, the opposite could also be true. I thought he had an interesting theory, but I'm not holding my breath that it's true.
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Edited by Ronin Tanuki: 1/16/2015 7:11:17 PMSo thinking you're not evil males you not evil (I.e., good)? Yeah, I don't think it works that way. "Good" is an objective standard, not a subjective one. Let's take the (*seriously? You can't say fascist German who committed genocide?*), for example, they could believe whatever they wanted but the majority of the international community disagreed. In international law, for example customary international law is derived from "opinio juris," which essentially boils down to 1. the international communities expectations and 2. It's patterns/practices. For example, the majority of the international community is against torture (human rights violation/war crime). You can be a nation where torture is not illegal under your laws (perhaps it's even encouraged), but it's still an international crime because it violates opinio juris (what the majority thinks is illegal).
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Edited by falcon8117: 1/16/2015 7:33:44 PMNo, I don't think that way at all and I apologize if that's how I came across. I totally agree that good and evil are objective, not subjective. However, I don't believe "might makes right" or whatever side has the majority (strength in numbers) is right. Right is right, wrong is wrong; majority opinion doesn't change that. I don't understand how someone can commit such evil acts as genocide, sex trafficking, etc. I just wonder if the people who are committing those acts of evil actually think they're good (can be read as not evil, whichever you prefer) or are aware that what they are doing is evil and wrong and just do it anyway because they are evil people. Does that make more sense? Sorry I was confusing!
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Perhaps the Traveler is not Good or Bad, per se. Just ultimately self-interested. First it giveth, then it taketh away, as Queens of the Stone Age once said. It "blesses" when it gets the greatest advantage for itself and then "curses" when it's better served to do so. From the perspective of the Traveler, perhaps there are no heroes or villains. Just pawns to play.
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A lot of interesting replies, but you must all realize that they are all conjecture. The primary premise of my argument was based on the weight of the evidence (i.e, it is more likely than not that were are the "good guys"). Let's suppose this was a case being presented before a court. One side is tasked with convincing the jury the traveler is "bad." The other, let's call it the defense, have to persuade them that it is "good." Which side do you think could make the more factually supported argument (i.e., the better argument)? The tangible evidence presented to us in the game establishes that we are the "light" fighting the "dark." This evidence comes from various sources including the speaker, the grimoir, and the story itself. The weight of the evidence is at least 51% in favor of us being "good" (ergo it's more likely than not). The theory that we are "bad" is not really based on tangible/physical evidence. It's based on scrutinous interpretation of certain tiny nuggets of information and you often have to resort to speculation to arrive at it. While possible, it is not the more likely of the two.
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Currently, in front of a jury, the traveler would be deemed as good... But as you have seen many times in court, sometimes the jury is wrong.. They are usually wrong when there are bits and pieces of the true story left out... So they are unaware of something and make their decision without having the full evidence of the matter... This could be exactly what the OP was speculating towards.. We dont know the full story, it could go any way the developers decide.. The traveler could be bad or good.. Only time will tell the truth.. Saying all of that.. I am not arguing either way on what the traveler currently is... I just read your comment about juries and decided to voice an opinion towards that. O.J. very well could have murdered his old lady, but the evidence lacked to prove it. Just because the jury didnt have the evidence to prove he did it, doesnt mean he didnt. At the same time, just because the jury didnt have the evidence to prove him guilty, doesnt mean he did it either... All it means, is that a jury couldnt prove him guilty with the evidence provided.
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Edited by Ronin Tanuki: 1/16/2015 11:27:50 PMWell, the standard in a criminal trial (in the US) is "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is a pretty difficult standard to meet. That's sort of the point, though. The founding fathers held the philosophy that it's better to let a guilty person walk than to deprive an innocent person of freedom/life. The standard in a civil trial is usually far less burdensome. Generally, it's the "preponderance of the evidence" standard (i.e., is it more likely than not. "51%"). When the outcome can be rather high (for example, losing custody of your children) a more hefty standard in used, "clear and convincing evidence," which is somewhere between 51% and beyond a reasonable doubt. I do agree with you, however. Juries can arrive (and often do) to conclusions that don't necessarily conform to the evidence presented. It's not a perfect system, and it will never be so, as long as it is human beings that are involved in it.
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And those little nuggets are why I love speculating so much. ;)
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Edited by Azreal_15: 1/5/2015 3:40:18 PMI wouldn't call thrall cannibals seeing they are aliens so eating humans wouldn't be taboo per say, just suck to be us. Edit Also if the Traveler is bad and the Darkness was after it to stop it, it would attack anyone that allies with the Traveler looking at them evil by association. So I see no problem with the Darkness/Hive killing Humans since we & the Traveler are evil to them. As for the Crota raid, darkness weighing you down, we would be fighting for the side of evil so of course they would try to stop us by any means.
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Edited by Juanbeck: 1/5/2015 3:26:03 PMYeah, youre actually correct my man. But u forgot something. If the traveler and the speaker are the bad guys, dinklebot wouldnt know. He would be as confused as us the guardians. Also, i would like to point that, crota himself is dead right? Well he wasnt that important anyway. The hives real god as we know right now is Oryx. Which is mentioned as a bigger influence to the hive than crota. So maybe all of the hive are being mislead too by this Oryx guy since he could easily tell them the same crappy story as the "good guys" told us the guardians and eventually make the hive battle us Just think about it. There are MANY posible outcomes
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Dinklebot was made by the traveler. Why would an evil thing make servants that are oblivious to its purpose (and give them free will to boot). If Dinklebot is "good" it's because it reflects the qualities of its maker.
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So it's like halo all over.
