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originally posted in:TFS The Floods Sanctuary
10/29/2014 6:43:48 AM
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So is just like alcohol, but illegal? Weird. I don't understand why it isn't just recreational like alcohol.
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    Also from a biochemical basis, comparing THC (main psychoactive cannabanoid in weed) to alcohol is a flawed argument: [quote]"Analogies between alcohol and THC should be treated with great scepticism. It is a flawed argument." Prof Goodwin said the problem with THC was that it had been proved that it stuck to brain tissue, eventually causing a dangerous build-up. The Victorian government voted earlier this month against the acceptance of key recommendations in a report it commissioned that recommended the legalisation of marijuana on the grounds that such a move would minimise criminal activity which surrounded it.[/quote] [url=http://www.schizophrenia.com/news/marijuana1.html]>>>>>[/url] I don't care about the legality of weed, but, comparing it to alcohol is a flawed argument. Different drugs, different effects.

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  • Yes they are, but compare the damages one does and its legality is competely acceptable.

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  • Edited by GuN: 10/30/2014 4:27:30 AM
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    Alcohol was legal for centuries though, long before medical science could understand its negative effects. Even cigarettes (which were legalized a century ago) are not treated like alcohol. Buy a bottle of vodka, and a pack of cigs, the cigarette box is going to have health label warnings all over it. And cigarettes kill less than alcohol.

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  • Everything was legal until it wasn't.

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  • Edited by GuN: 11/9/2014 8:58:43 AM
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    Alcohol was allowed to be sold legally though for a long time, it has experienced a much more societal acceptance than other drugs; hence no one could have altered its legality; the alcohol industry (selling alcohol) has been around since pre industrial times, why nobody can ban it. Tobacco was allowed to be sold legally in 1900, post industrial, if they knew then, what they do now, in its infancy, they could have easily shut it down. Now like the alcohol companies, the tobacco industry can sue any country that tries to make tobacco illegal. Why a country can't ban alcohol drinking, the alcohol industries have the right to sue you, same with the tobacco ones. Why alcohol will probably never be illegal ever again, because of the private sector.

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  • This image of an alcohol industry that has more power than any government on earth is a little hard to swallow.

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  • Edited by GuN: 11/9/2014 9:30:17 AM
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    No, not more powerful than the government, but let me put it this way, they are put under strict controls (no direct advertising to youth, for example), but like the tobacco companies, any country that says we will ban alcohol, the alcohol industries can sue them. So as long as these corporations are around, alcohol and tobacco can be sold legally, and they try weaseling their way to put the least amount of restrictions (and succeed often----the tobacco industry has sued many countries who have tried to impose severe restrictions on selling tobacco). Just like the tobacco companies, I know several European countries have tried to tighten their laws, all defeated when they were brought to court by the tobacco companies. Recently, Finland said by 2040, tobacco will be illegal to sell, all the tobacco companies are in the process of sueing them. Uruguay just tightened its smoking laws; guess what? They're being sued millions by the tobacco company. The United Kingdom is trying to put more health warnings on toabacco smoking. Guess what? They're being sued. One of my brother's friends works for Philip Morris, a tobacco company. His 9-5 job, along with the many many other well educated law teams job is to make sure that no country even remotely tries to make tobacco legal, and try to minimize the bans the government puts on it. He says it's the same with the alcohol companies. He says working for these companies is like selling your soul to the devil, but he says, (he scored high on his bar exams and did well in law school), these (extremely rich) companies headhunt for the best, and (along with all of his colleagues there), the money is too good (like he's 29, and he's making a six figure salary and has alread paid off most of his law school debt") This is why one of the delegates said this: "“We can only hope that the public will listen to science – not ‘Big Marijuana’ interests who stand to gain millions of dollars from increased addiction rates.” They have uncovered evidence that the tobacco companies, for a while, have been waiting for the day weed becomes legal.

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  • I'm not buying it. There is this thing called sovereign immunity. I don't see a private company suing a government. What would be the basis for the lawsuit? Do we have a constitutional right to smoke and drink? Nope. Btw there is a town in Massachusetts considering banning all tobacco products right now. There was no mention of a lawsuit from the tobacco companies.

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  • Edited by GuN: 11/10/2014 3:15:18 AM
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    [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Morris_v._Uruguay]Case study number one----Philip Morris sues Uruguay.[/url] [url=http://www.theweek.co.uk/business/59914/tobacco-giant-threatens-11bn-lawsuit-over-plain-packaging]Case study number 2, Philip Morris sues the UK for trying to include more health warnings on tobacco packages.[/url] [url=http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/philip-morris-challenges-new-european-tobacco-laws/articleshow/37330521.cms]Number 3----EU tries to ban menthol cigarettes, Tobacco company challenges them in court.[/url] [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2064314/Philip-Morris-challenges-Australian-law-plain-tobacco-packaging.html]Number 4----Philip Morris (successfully sues) Australia for trying to include more health warnings on cigarettes [/url] And the list goes on and on and on. The private sector prevents countries from even including more health warning labels on tobacco packages. Hence: “We can only hope that the public will listen to science – not ‘Big Marijuana’ interests who stand to gain millions of dollars from increased addiction rates.”--President of the American Society of Addiction Medicine "The crisis caused by marijuana legalization will be hastened by the certain entry of major business into marijuana production and sale. The result will be powerful 3 economic interests that will reinforce their political interests, a pattern that mirrors the well-established alcohol and tobacco industries and lobbies. "---Cochairman of the ASAM [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advocacy_group]Lobby groups[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying]search them up[/url] I remember the assistant to Obama's drug czar (government official who deals with drug policies), that the lobby groups of the tobacco and alcohol companies are extremely strong, and this is why it is very hard to even include more health warnings on these products. This is someone whose 9-5 job is to create and modify drug policies for a living.

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  • Funny thing is, not one of your links actually mentions tobacco winning anything in court, just threats of lawsuits and even those are dealing with packaging and trademarks. Also of note is the last one that says legal experts expect the lawsuit to fail and even mentions that Bhutan just banned cigarettes. There is not one mention of a country trying to outlaw cigarettes and getting sued. Complete fail my friend. Thanks for proving my point though.

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    #Finland 2040 tobacco ban philip morris, search it up. I guess I was wrong about Australia and Bhutan, but regardless, here in America, the lobby groups in DC are strong. Hence tobacco is not going to disappear from the legal market anytime soon in the western world. And all the legal teams agree, "Big Marijuana" is a threat, with all due respect, I will trust their legal advice over yours.

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  • I looked up Finland and the only mention of Phillip Morris said they filed a complaint. Wow. You insinuate that tobacco companies can sue to stop laws banning tobacco because they are so powerful. Really all they can do is argue about trademark issues (which they have already lost, look at Australia) and personal freedom issues. Neither of which are exclusive to tobacco. You are venturing into using scare tactics and still claiming you have no opinion on the subject. I will repeat myself. I find this to be entirely disingenuous.

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  • Edited by GuN: 11/10/2014 5:12:04 AM
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    The lung cancer link was issued by the Surgeon General in 1964, tobacco companies stopped marketing cigarettes as safe in 1994, when the research was so strong they can't deny this. This is why the doctors are against marijuana legalization in the US, because of the private sector. In Canada, a group of doctors and scientists have sidestepped the issue of private corporations, because we can just make a government monopoly on marijuana sales (so no private marijuana companies) In Canada, since we are different than America, and only the Prime Minister can change the laws of marijuana legality, the CAMH has proposed a government monopoly, meaning no private sector, and the legal teams that advised them said a government monopoly would prevent the private sector from intervening. One of the candidates for prime minister says he will listen to the CAMH. This is why, since I live in Canada, I think I am on the verge of accepting this version of marijuana legalization. But I'm still iffy, but I think I like the CAMH's position. Just read the CAMH document there, that's my stance on marijuana legalization? Strict regulatory control, happy? I am not American, and the Prime Minister candidate who support marijuana legalization, says he will listen to the CAMH. So I guess I support that. Thank you for repeatedly pressuring me on taking an opinion, I think I have a final stance now; I will support the CAMH. Are you happy now? But that being said, the key author of the CAMH position paper saying (because of the weakly regulated cannabis legalization in Colorado, which allows for the private sector to make $$$ off of it) is "exactly the kind of thing we do not want", I guess I am then against what you Americans are doing.

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  • Fair enough. I didn't intend pressure. I just don't know how you can talk about psychosis and suicide and not be at least a little passionate about it. Choosing not to decide is still making a choice after all. Btw If it's any consolation. I agree we need an informed public. There is a segment of the population that likes to compare weed against harder drugs and insinuate that weed is harmless. This, of course is far from the truth as you have pointed out.

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    [quote]I just don't know how you can talk about psychosis and suicide and not be at least a little passionate about it.[/quote] You can go the **** for TLDR I am extremely passionate about this. Initially, because of my brother, and seeing all the people in the psychiatric inpatient unit harmed by it, I was against it. But, recently, the Dutch stabilized their rates; mainly through harm reduction, and maxing the THC at 15 percent, and informing the public. Also, since no private sector in Holland, no private companies can make any complaints when they made the sale of marijuana more restricted. I am very passionate about this, this is why I chose to become a psychiatrist, but seeing some psychiatrists' saying if weed is controlled, and by using government monopolies, all of this money can go into public education programs, and create interventions for adolescents who are heavy smokers (like my brother) and do early treatments, I can support this system of legalization. But personally, I do not care about strict legality vs decriminalization, because under both of these systems, there is going to be a lot of education programs, to prevent teens from using it, and in Holland, this has achieved success. The reason I am agnostic on the issue of legalization is because it is a commonly used drug, and a lot of people can smoke it without getting any harm. But there is a vulnerable minority which marijuana can trigger psychosis, and I think this needs to be addressed. I'd prefer decriminalization (so people aren't made criminals for smoking it) or strict regulation. I should have clarified, since I am Canadian, it doesn't work like America, only the federal government (not the public) can change the law, so doctors have a say. In America, I am opposed to it, because with state ballots, no doctors have any say. I'll clarify, if I were to be an American, I would be opposed right now, but in Canada, I know there are top tier medical teams that inform the government, so legal or not, people like my brother and the others I've met; they will be accounted for in a determination of what legal status weed is given. Another reason is the legal teams that advised the doctors say, if legal weed is allow to proceed in America, it will be more strict than right now as they develop newer forms of regulation. This is why I don't really care if weed is legal or not; the professionals said that, either weed is going to be strictly regulated (no advertising, no private companies), and a lot of education programs. I am sorry, I should have clarified this. What is going on now, in an unregulated environment in Colorado, I am opposed to that. Tobacco and Alcohol companies may not be as strong as I thought they were, but I stand by the stance is that it makes regulating a substance harder, when there is pressure from the private sector. Which is why I like the Dutch system and CAMH's position, their methods forbid private entrepreneurs. So in regard, to not being a little bit passionate, I know, if it's legal, they (the Canadian government) are going to follow the new Dutch system (they explicitly said they will follow CAMH's model), at the very least and focus on education and treatment if weed is still allowed to be legal, and prevent teens from using it. If there is a private sector for weed, it would be harder for the doctors' to send their message, which is why I think if weed is going to be legal, Holland's new system of regulation is best; because it focuses on harm reduction. This is why I am a fan of CAMH's position (and one doctor who was a part of the committee who wrote that report said half of his patients have suffered because of weed); they are balancing the harms it does to some, and the pleasure others get from it. This is a doctor who probably deals with people like my brother on a daily basis. But if I had my way, again, there would be less talk until legalization as society, as a whole, accepts weed, like tobacco and alcohol, has negative effects on some. In Canada, I don't have to worry about legality, because some organziations like CAMH explicitly said they will make sure they will balance the harm weed does to people like my brother, and the joy others experience from it. I know, either way, the pain of psychosis I have felt, and others, the Canadian government will account for that when they devise a platform for legal marijuana. *****So in summary, I am passionate about this (being through the experience of someone with psychosis led me to becoming a psychiatrist) but I know, north of the border, here in Canada, any legalization platform will be much more strict (because the government, at the council of psychiatric experts, will follow there advice, and try to minimize the risk it does to people like my brother), and (like the new Dutch system) account for the people weed can harm. If weed is not to be legalized, the Prime Minister candidates said they will still make an education program. If I were American, I would oppose marijuana legalization in any state except Washington and Colorado, to see if the American government can try to follow the new Dutch system (the Dutch system is much more strict than Colorado's, America's states that legalize weed officially have the most liberal marijuana laws in the world). I should have clarified this earlier.

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  • Just curious. Why is it better if the government makes $$$$ off of it instead of the private sector. Sounds like a conflict of interest to me. The government plays a major role in public health and safety. Why would they be involved in the manufacture and/or distribution of substances they believe to be harmful? How can they be trusted to govern without a bias if they stand to profit from the sale of these substances? Doesn't sound right to me.

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    If you don't want to read my wall below, it's because the Prime Minister (candidate) and Uruguay president [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harm_reduction]are using the money on harm reduction[/url] and they're trying to build a case (submit reports to the UN showing that legalization, with strict controls, can curb cannabis use, and harm). If they weren't using the $$ on harm reduction, the UN (the INCB branch keeps a track on which countries have the highest cannabis abuse rates). Essentially the UN has a branch called the INCB, which is the drug watchdog; their job is to enact drug policies, and measure the distribution, sale and possession of illegal drugs. They'll kinda notice if the countries are not fulfilling their obligations and not practicing harm reduction. In fact, all the countries that legalized weed,they are facing backlash, because, remember, legalizing weed breaks UN law; the countries that are legalizing weed are facing serious repercussions, and the INCB said they will be paying very very close attention to any country that legalizes weed.

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  • Edited by Bud44: 11/10/2014 8:33:59 AM
    There is no UN law, just treaties. They have no power or jurisdiction over anything. They are a farce and can go straight to hell as far as I'm concerned. Serious repercussions? Ya, like what? A strongly worded document? Lol -blam!- the UN. As you can tell, this is more of a hot button for me.

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    And even the Canadian government is doing it for the money, at least they are listening to the doctors, and giving them money for education programs straight up. And that's where I'll leave you with my final stance: I only will support decriminalization, or the model the CAMH has provided. And that is based off of the Dutch model, somewhat, where weed (under strict controls) sale along with education and harm reduction programs, has lowered use.

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    They can exclude countries for breaking their treaties. This is kinda what is happening to Uruguay, the president is being excluded a lot recently. Regardless, if governments were doing this for the $$$$, Attorney General Eric Holder (if teen use goes up, we will sue the states that legalize weed). Yes countries can dissent, but still, the UN, can impose criminal sanctions on them. Even though Uruguay is trying to urge them to take more progressive stance, they are apparently treating him like shit right now. Regardless, the Canadian government said it will focus on harm reduction, if they want the $$$, at least they are minimizing its harms (banning THC content over 15 percent, not selling ring pots, banning advertising). And seeing as the Prime Minister candidate's mom developed bipolar disorder because she smoked a lot of pot as a teen, I think he is sincere.

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  • Edited by GuN: 11/10/2014 8:20:46 AM
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    [quote]How can they be trusted to govern without a bias if they stand to profit from the sale of these substances?[/quote] In the Netherlands, since the coffee shops were run independently, and the government tends to look after the wellfare of its citizens, when the mental health and cannabis research came out; they explicitly asked the doctors and legal teams to make a stricter regulation scheme. And, for the 100s of coffee shops shut down, in order to enforce the stricter legalization, they set up worker programs for the ex coffee shop owners to find new jobs. For Uruguay, the only reason it is being legalized is to hurt the black market. The president has imposed a government monopoly, and is doing this to minimize the damage weed is doing. This is why the weed is capped at 15 percent THC, to prevent the use of the higher THC strains, which I told you before can trigger psychosis in some (this is why all the psychotic cases came out in the late 80s and 90s, in the 70s the weed had lower THC level). In Canada, the Prime Minister who wants to legalize it wants to reduced the harm of weed. He also said all of this money is going into education programs. Governments are regulating the substance to minimize the harms of weed. Private sectors just want as much money as possible, which is why, it took almost 40 years for the medical organizations to make the tobacco companies stop marketing their products as safe. Also, the UN has an international treaty that forbids the sale of marijuana; Uruguay is trying to make the case for legalization to minimize the harms of weed; if the UN finds out they're not using the $$$ for harm reduction; they will enact international law and sue any country that legalizes weed. Right now, the countries (US and Uruguay---the Dutch didn't legalize it, they made a loophole where growing it is illegal, but buying it from a coffeeshop is legal), are facing being sued, and the only reason the UN is not suing them, is that they are trying to make the case to legalize weed, under strict controls, to reduce its harms. By using the money on education and prevention, and also treating it like a health issue, they're trying to reduce its harms. This is why both the Canadian and Uruguay governments consulted their medical organizations to make their regulation. Even then, the Uruguay president said, if this alternative scheme doesn't work, and weed usage is increased by teens, he will shut it down. It appears as if he is trying to reduce the harms associated with weed, not take the $$$. If the Uruguay and Canadian governments (well one of the parties hoping to be elected in 2015--the other two are against legalizing) were corrupt, they wouldn't be maxing the THC at 15 percent, and making the advertising of weed illegal. They want to treat this like a public health problem, not a criminal one by reducing the risks of (the most commonly used) illicit drug. If these governments wanted the $$$, they'd allow the more addictive (>15 THC percent content) and make advertising legal. Also, they found, under the Dutch's strict regulatory scheme, they were able to prevent people from using harder drugs, because, their studies, show, buying weed illegally from a dealer increases exposure to other drugs ('hey you want some shrooms with the weed"), under a strict regulatory regime; they think the health effects of weed can be kept at a minimum. They find, when weed is illegal, racial minorities are picked on by police for marijuana possession. What they're trying to do, is keep the health and legal risks to a minimum. Also, again, I think the fact that the Netherlands is letting so many of their coffee shops disappear, whereas the tobacco companies fought (for three decades) the ban on tobacco advertising, and the fact that both the Uruguay and Canadian Prime Minister candidate said, if legalizing weed does not minimize its risks, they will shut it down. I think these governments have good intentions, and the fact is, I think if they were lying about not using harm reduction; medical organizations and hospitals wouldn't be supporting them-----a lot of the $$$ is specifically being used for education and prevention programs.

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  • Government absolutely wants the money. I don't buy that for a minute. And if the drug is legal and sold in legal outlets, there is no exposure to other drugs. You're not buying them from a street dealer anymore. Also, what about the conflict of interest? That doesn't go away. Put whatever spin you want on it, it's still there.

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  • Edited by GuN: 11/10/2014 8:34:53 AM
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    Regardless, the Canadian government promised the doctors here they will be educating the public. And they explicitly said no advertising and weed no more than 15 percent THC. Even if the government is making money off of it; they said, they will try to minimize the harms; like the Dutch government is. The Dutch cannabis use rates (among teens, at least) have now stabilized, this is all I need to know, is they will try to prevent teens from using it. Teens are much more susceptible to the negative effects of marijuana, and this is when a lot of the people who develop psychosis start smoking it. All I want is teen use to go down. "Put whatever spin you want on it, it's still there." It is still there, but the United Nation's INCB (drug watch) committee, said they will be paying very very close attention the cannabis use rates in the countries that legalize weed. And remember, they have the authority to impose criminal sanctions, and sue any country that legalizes weed. If they aren't practicing harm reduction (decreasing the use, especially among teens); they can get in trouble with the UN. Regardless, here in Canada, the government said it's following the Dutch model if weed is legal. The Dutch have much more stable cannabis rates than we do.........the government said they are going to make a high profile education program and prevention programs to deal with the fact that a lot of kids smoke weed here./ Regardless if they are doing it for the money, they said they will definitely focusing on reducing the effects of weed on teen brains; which I told you before, is the only thing I care about.

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  • The UN has no jurisdiction over a sovereign state. They can take a flying leap. They have no business in my business. Sue us? Good luck. The UN is a dog with no bite, especially without the US military. Not being pompous, it's just the way it is.

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  • Edited by GuN: 11/10/2014 8:53:05 AM
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    Yeah, but the Attorney General, the departments of Justice and Public Health (which hold the right to end all the marijuana experiments), said, if teen use increases, they will put an end to this. The UN can't do anything, but still the federal government can shut it down. Another condition (along with lowered teen usage) is that interstate trafficking is kept to a minimum, if that happens,along with the increase of kids smoking dope, the federal government will shut it down. So even though the UN can't shut it down; the America federal government decided, if either of the two conditions I listed above; they will shut down marijuana legalization.

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