There's actually a very well-established discourse on this topic regarding the importance of establishing a hardcore niche of content. I'd encourage you to familiarize yourself with the state of things before acting like you know it.

I am familiar with the discourse and won't comment on it here, since that is not exactly the topic for it. You have failed to present any argument one way on the other however, except for some basic ad hominem, so yeah.

Not sure you understand the logical fallacy you reference. I can spell it out more clearly for you, though, if you don't see what I'm saying. You've made the argument here that the claims Bungie has made regarding difficulty and coordination are irrelevant (although you've provided no basis for that claim other than that you don't like its implications). I responded by referring you to the often cited phenomenon when developers make this difficult choice. Frequently, communities which do not establish a hardcore echelon of content for a niche population of their community suffer from an excess of poor feedback and bickering. This creates a negative loop where the content which was intended for dedicated gamers who seek challenges is being assessed by the general population of gamers. Eventually, the scope of the game becomes flat in that you have no tiers of difficulty because everyone is accessing everything. You essentially take the dynamism out of the game's community. While there are ideological differences on how to interpret and respond to this trend, the trend itself is not disputed. At best, you can make an argument of values. You personally do not see the value in Bungie's decision to opt for a tiered community of gamers with access to varying levels of difficulty. That's a perfectly valid opinion. However, it has no bearing on Bungie's opinion. They've made their choice. Don't purchase the product if you disagree so strongly.

[quote]I can spell it out more clearly for you, though, if you don't see what I'm saying. You've made the argument here that the claims Bungie has made regarding difficulty and coordination are irrelevant (although you've provided no basis for that claim other than that you don't like its implications). I responded by referring you to the often cited phenomenon when developers make this difficult choice. Frequently, communities which do not establish a hardcore echelon of content for a niche population of their community suffer from an excess of poor feedback and bickering. This creates a negative loop where the content which was intended for dedicated gamers who seek challenges is being assessed by the general population of gamers. [/quote] No. I simply addressed the lack of matchmaking when addressing that "hardcore" content, which creates an artificial barrier for players and... Well, just take a look at the other responses in this thread. This is the only real result of putting on an artificial gate like no MM on any type of content. Accessibility of content does not exclude its difficulty. Nowhere I said that random groups should be able to beat the raid easily or even should it be possible (but considering the assumption it will be beat fast, it seems unlikely.) [quote]Eventually, the scope of the game becomes flat in that you have no tiers of difficulty because everyone is accessing everything. You essentially take the dynamism out of the game's community. While there are ideological differences on how to interpret and respond to this trend, the trend itself is not disputed. [/quote] You are seriously making the claim that making difficult content accessible to more players makes it less difficult? Note, that I never even said that. Again, you are missing the point. [quote]At best, you can make an argument of values. You personally do not see the value in Bungie's decision to opt for a tiered community of gamers with access to varying levels of difficulty. That's a perfectly valid opinion. However, it has no bearing on Bungie's opinion. They've made their choice. Don't purchase the product if you disagree so strongly.[/quote] No. This is a visible design flaw, stemming from flawed logic.

He would have to put in effort. People that are crying for MM don't want to put in effort, unless it's to come here and cry.

More assumptions and cheap insults.

[quote]"Oh raids are so hardcore, you need to build a hardcore group otherwise its to hardcore!" I'm sorry, but no. Thats just a very lazy excuse that does not touch on the topic why MM is not allowed alongside regular group creation. The whole thing just stinks of creating a cliche of people who are so hardcore they have their own super hard group content and are oh so super, which is fine, but not when accomplished by creating artificial gates like the lack of MM. You are not being revolutionary nor do you make things more challenging by excluding automatic MM. You are just putting up a completely artificial barrier for the less social players to even try your content. That is not the right way to go as I'm sure you will discover once your super elite content tanks hard after release (ie, mostly ignored) Sorry, no bonus.[/quote] It's like you didn't even read what Luke said. They didn't design them so that everyone plays them. They designed them for a specific niche (Which you or anyone can be a part of if they stop bitching and go find some people to play with) that will play that content. Which means it's perfectly serving its intended function.

And blocking out the majority of the player base from content in games has worked out so well in the past. That is exactly the problem here.

What part of designed for the hardcore don't you understand? You wanna play it? Get on their level.

lol, the mythical "hardcore" player-base. Good luck with that.

Find friends and stop complaining. Not hard to do.

Keep telling yourself that. I'm going to withdraw from this specific conversation here seeing as you don't actually have anything to say.

How many video games have you developed? How many copies sold? How many games has Bungie developed? How many copies sold? Destiny Lead Designer Luke Smith already responded to you in the OP: [quote]I understand everyone's frustration about the decision to not have matchmaking in a post-matchmaking world. I also understand the limitations that this places on the activity's adoption at scale. That barrier to entry - the requirement that you get a group of people together and venture into something that is going to challenge your ability to work together (first) and your thumbs (second) - is a barrier I was willing to erect to preserve the activity goals. [/quote]

[quote]How many video games have you developed? How many copies sold? How many games has Bungie developed? How many copies sold?[/quote] Unrelated to anything. Typical non-argument showing up everywhere, no relevant to the discussion. Experience is not an indicator of soundness of logic, argument or anything else. Neither mine or Bungies experience is not questioned here, rather the argument presented itself. Try again. [quote]Destiny Lead Designer Luke Smith already responded to you in the OP:[/quote] Except he has not. What he has said does not in any way address why random parties are not at least allowed to try and go through that content, especially since he fully expects the normal mode to be beaten relatively fast. The barrier he mentions is there weather random match making or not. Neither of the two barrier he mentions is defeated by random match making and that is exactly what I was addressing in my post. He is just very clearly catering to the "oh we are so special" raiding crowd which has worked out so well for past games that most of them introduce at least a basic level of group finding / LFG systems because, surprise surprise, no one bothers with their high level content due to the absolutely toxic atmosphere there. That post does not answer my issues, it is the issue and a clear mistake in reasoning that should be clear to anyone with experience in playing, let alone designing, games that include "raids".

This isn't a discussion. Bungie is, for all intensive purposes, Dear Leader, and we are nothing but peons. You can rant and write long-winded comments till your fingers are numb, but neither I nor Bungie gives a damn. This is the non-PC version of what Luke said. So, here's a quarter, go call someone who cares.