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Edited by Hylebos: 7/22/2014 5:53:11 PM
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[quote][b]6) Epilogue[/b][/quote]As I hope this thread has shown the reader, Exotics are a great excuse for Bungie's designers, artists, writers, and engineers to go all out with their respective crafts to create the most beautiful and interesting equipment to decorate the landscape of Destiny's endgame. This thread has only focused on mechanical abilities, but there is so much more that goes into the creation of an exotic that can't be covered today. I'm very excited to see the result of their hard work, be it special animations, intricate back stories and lore, or unique mechanics that I didn't even consider. I'm sure that there are no doubt some people who are concerned that Destiny's exotics have the potential to unbalance both the PvP and PvE aspects of Destiny's gameplay. While these concerns are not unfounded, I really don't feel that things will be as bad as some people predict. For one, the overall power level of the exotic tier will be limited by the fact that players can only equip up to one exotic weapon and up to one exotic armor piece at a time. This should prevent the game from becoming too complex or pants-on-head silly, while empowering player decisions and making entry into the end game more accessible for average gamers. Not to mention, Bungie has said that they are committed to dynamically balancing the game post launch using a variety of systems they unfortunately haven't detailed yet, but in my mind there are enough simple solutions to enact should a particular exotic start to dominate in the metagame that it really shouldn't be that huge of a concern. In general, as long as exotic abilities are designed with both conveyance and counterplay in mind, the metagame should remain fairly healthy on its own, shifting backwards and forwards in a rather natural and interesting fashion. As I mentioned earlier, I didn't even begin to scratch the surface of all the topics I wanted to cover in depth with this thread, and for that I must apologize once again. I'm rather well known for my long threads, but even I have my limits with regards to scope and size, so you must forgive me if I choose to wait till another day to continue the conversation. As a parting gift though, allow me to share with you an unsorted list of ideas that I was unable to work into the main body of the thread. Hopefully they will spark the reader's imagination and lead to some critical thinking. ____________________________________________________________ What if there were abilities which multiplied the amount of super energy you could earn for a duration after performing certain feats? Something like "Earning a double kill with this weapon multiplies the amount of super energy you gain for a duration"? Would something like that be too infrequent to be useful? Would it be too frequent to be balanced? What if there were abilities that generated orbs of light on certain triggers? A team oriented ability like that would encourage fireteams to work together, but what sort of trigger would complement an effect of this power? If it occurs too frequently, you'll have snowballing supers for days. What if there were abilities that allowed you to fake out your opponent? Something like a Rocket Launcher which first fired a harmless Hologram Rocket before firing the real rocket after a delay so you could anticipate your opponent's movements and nail him good? Would that effect be too binary with its success rates? Would there be ways to convey that ability properly so victims wouldn't be overly frustrated by the deception? What about applying movement or stat debuffs with your weapons? Can you make things like slows or roots or a loss of stability appreciable to the user without making them crippling for the victim? Is it possible to bake enough counterplay into those forms of abilities to make them feel fair for the targets? Or would this design space be better handled by subclass abilities which have a greater potential for counterplay than weapon abilities? We have plenty of abilities that do all sorts of things like "You can throw grenades farther" or "You can reload faster", but what if we had abilities which applied those effects to nearby members on your team aside from you? Would that be valuable to players? Can you convey when the aura is working properly? Could it compound and become too powerful depending on the effect? What if there were super strong abilities that came with significant and unique drawbacks? Imagine something like a cursed scope which allows you to see player outlines through thin walls, but the drawback is that it drains your super meter to power and keep the ability active. Would players actually go for a double edged sword like that? How powerful does the ability / drawback have to be to allow it to be balanceable while maintaining its appeal? I didn't even really cover many abilities for exotic armor pieces. What if there was an effect that triggered whenever the player slid? What if there was an effect that triggered whenever the player took damage or whenever the player took damage from a specific elemental source? What if there were abilities that modified the way your vertical movement mode worked? There are so many unexplored triggers for this particular design space, I'm really curious to see how exotic armor abilities are able to transcend over the otherwise less exciting sub-exotic armor abilities. What if there was an ability to increase the rate of item drops or experience gain? Would equipment with those abilities be overly dominant in PvE, ala the jester's gloves / covetous serpent rings in Dark Souls 2? Could tradeoffs be implemented to make it more fair, like increased exp at the cost of drop rate? What if some of the exotic weapons didn't even fit into an established weapon archetype? The enemies of the Last City have numerous weapons at their disposal which don't fit into any of the archetypes of weapons that we Guardians use, what if you could acquire those weapons from a rare drop? Some of them might be considered sub-exotic, but perhaps some of them would be weird enough or powerful enough on their own to be considered exotic without even having a ton of super crazy abilities tagged on. Would that add meaningful variety to the sandbox? Would that add mechanical depth to the metagame? What if certain abilities were only active at certain times of day? Imagine something like a weapon which gains extra damage during nighttime. Would players enjoy the theme that such an ability would bring even if it was somewhat inconsistent and unreliable? Or, what if certain abilities gave you bonuses against specific enemy races? Much of the lore talks about how this weapon was used for killing Fallen or this weapon was used to kill Cabal, what better way to show that than having an ability specifically tailored for destroying enemies of that type? The flavor reminds me of the favored enemy mechanic for Rangers in Dungeons and Dragons. What if some weapons override your usual melee or grenade abilities while equipped? It seems almost thematically wrong if a weapon like Red Death didn't have an ability to go along with its blood soaked bayonet (though I am fully expecting some sweet melee animations for that thing at the very least). Would that be appealing to players? Would that increase the complexity of the game too much? What if we had abilities which assisted vehicle operation? Something like "Kills with a vehicle shaves time off its boost" or "Splatters with this vehicle repair it slightly." Would those abilities be too powerful? Would players value equipment which pushes them into more of a pilot role than an infantry role? Could we even stick some of these abilities directly onto some of the higher level Sparrows? "Splatters with this sparrow increase your super's energy", and stuff like that? ____________________________________________________________ There's just so much out there to think about and explore and I could probably generate ideas for days. It's one of the reasons that this topic has kept me captivated for the past six months, but every time I tried to write about it things quickly got too long and spiraled into madness. For the present though, I'm interested to hear what the community has to say about the ideas proposed in this thread. Again, while much of this is speculation, I hope you can see where I'm coming from and take that into account when you reply. I'm hoping to see civil and critical discussion on the topic, and if there's anything I can clarify or expound upon, please let me know. I do not know what will happen on Bungie Day with regards to IGN's coverage of Destiny's high level equipment, but I'm excited to see how many of the ideas I've been puzzling over for the past couple of months make or do not make it into the final game. This really is an exciting time to be a member on Bungie.net, even though we've seen so much of what Destiny has to offer, I feel that we still haven't seen anything yet :) Hopefully the next thread doesn't take me several months to complete, not sure what I'll write about... but until then keep the conversation going! ~Hylebos [b]If you would like to comment, please reply to the Original Post. [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/65973135/0/0]Please click on this Hyperlink to return to the top![/url][/b]
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  • Halo and Borderlands had an illegitimate child and its name is Destiny.

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  • Wow. One of the best reads on here. Great work my friend and way to be creative! It sounds like you need to get into game design or some form of storytelling. What are you studying in college?

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  • I studied Computer Science at Western Washington University with a minor in Mathematics :)

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  • Fantastic. Will you be playing via xbox1 or ps4?

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  • Both and Xbox 360.

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  • cool. I assume your gamertag will be Hylebos?

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  • Only on Xbox, some joker took Hylebos on PSN... I'm Hylebosaiden there.

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  • awesome. I will be sure to keep my eye open and send you a salute.

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  • Holy Wall of a Text, Batman!!!

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  • I like your idea with slows and roots, interesting for shotgun users as it would allow them a good way to "get in" or slow down fleeting targets in blasts not intended for damage but to close the space between predator and prey, As with my other post I am going to draw an idea from Dota 2, Bloodseekers infamous ultimate "Rupture" would be practical on both shotguns and sniper, the ability would put a de-buff on the target when hit that damages them if they try to move based on a percentage of total distance traveled after the effect hits, but the ability has absolutely no effect if fired on a stationary target, this would allow easy follow up shots and head shots for the sniper

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  • If you were to make a rupture style abillity you'd need to make sure that there's a ton of dedicated UI to inform the player that he's going to take a ton of damage if he moves around. The biggest problem though with taking a lot of Moba mechanics like roots and slows and stuns and putting them on weapon abillities is that a shooter is simply much faster paced that a game like DOTA or League, even if the stun or slow lasts for only a few seconds, you'll probably be dead by then because relatively immobile targets are very easy to shoot. Which goes back to my earlier comment about slows and stuns perhaps fitting better onto subclass abillities rather than guns because they have a greater potential for counterplay (dodging a grenade which slows or stuns is easier than dodging bullets which mostly relies on your opponent being inaccurate).

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  • Good read. Way too long though, haha ;) Considering your exotic theory, PvP would be/is going to be a frustrating mess unless each team is aware of the exotic weapons that all the other players on the map wield whether they are friend or foe (much like League of Legends). How else could a team develop any sort of strategy to counter the exotics of the opposing team or to better implement their own exotics into their strategy. At best everyone would have to be yelling into their mics all this vital information like "I have this gun", "I have so and so", or "that guy just killed me with so and so ability." With all gear and weapons openly displayed for all players to see it becomes a chess match then rather than a twitch skill competition. Sounds like just what the genre needs.... BUT.... From everything we've seen it appears as though that's not what this PvP is ultimately about. That could, of course, change with more info revealed in the coming days and weeks, but from where I'm sitting PvP looks more like a place to come show off your gear and abilities to everyone in the typical decapitated chicken fashion. In general, I think the multiplayer-oriented FPS genre needs to take several pages out of the MOBA playbook. It would be a healthy change. I hope that's what Bungie has in store. Again, good post.

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  • You're correct that conveyance of what your opponents are using needs to be a big part of Destiny, and this can largely be done through silouhettes, particles, sounds, colors, and a variety of other mechanics. If all else fails, some abillity to look through your opponent's loadouts while waiting to respawn would do the trick, I'm pretty sure the UI for that sort of thing existed in the game in the Alpha, but I don't think I really took advantage of it much. I'm not terribly concerned about the case where people have difficulty communicating what their exotics do in mid combat to their teammates, in my mind it isn't important for my teammates to know "My exotic sniper Closing Time cloaks me and allows for remote ammo pickup", I'll just tell them "I'm going to go snipe." Neither abillity really requires my team mates to know about aside from random trivia in order to work :)

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  • Thanks for commenting. I've had this thread on my mind all day. What are your thoughts on having strong MOBA elements in an FPS setting? Seems like a natural evolution in the FPS genre that's about to take hold.

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  • I think it's a good direction for developers to explore in, finding elements in other genres that are fun and trying to fuse them with other parts of other genres that are fun I think is a good way forward. With regards to MOBAs and Shooters, the biggest problem from taking mechanics from the former and applying it to the latter in my mind is just the vast differences in kill times. Shooters are super quick, so a lot of the crowd control and debuffs and other really important aspects of MOBAs just can't be appreciated as well in a Shooter because the difference between stunning someone before killing them is minor between just straight up killing them. But yeah, MOBAs are very compelling I think because they have that strong thematic hook of "What if you were to have a mad scientist, a forest witch, a brutal millitary commander, an archaeologist, and a monster from another dimension team up to fight a mermaid, a undead hunter, a robot, a werewolf, and a turtle? Who would win?" Simillar to fighting games, it's both interesting and intriguing to see how these different archetypes and abillities and fighting styles collide and crash, and I think adding simillar thematic hooks to shooters which allow you to change up the way you fight, even though the sandbox is perhaps more limited than a MOBA's would be, would make a ton of difference.

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  • I guess the match structure of MOBA's wasn't really what I meant. It just seems that when everyone eventually reaches level cap in Destiny, rounds out their class build and has an exotic weapon such as 'Closing Time' that they take into PvP with them, which by the way DOES NOT drop from their dead body to be grabbed and used by whomever, then it might be more appropriate to think of players as "characters" like in a MOBA. Very next-gen of Bungie. For it to work, however, information is everything since two players could have completely different builds and exotics but look exactly alike. You could jump blindly into a MOBA match because each character is unique and you instantly know what you're up against at first sight if you are familiar with the characters in the game. This wouldn't be the case with Destiny. It's too chaotic and fast-paced to stop and look closely at the gun that your enemy is currently shooting you in the face with. Like you said earlier some subtle audible or visual cue would be vital no matter what, but I would rather see it taken a step further. Maybe just add more time before each match begins and display the more important aspects of your allies' and enemies' gear so that you can begin forming a strategy with your team while all the characters on screen are "beaming down" and the center guy is sticking the flag in the ground or whatever animation. It's just my opinion of course, but it seems like this approach would be a much more enjoyable and engaging competitive experience for everyone rather than jumping into a match and having one team or the other being caught with their pants down NOT because of a brilliant left-field strategy the other team composed, but because they had no idea what kind of abilities they were up against until halfway through a match. That's just punishing in the worst way. Level the playing field, so to speak, by merely informing everyone of who and what they're up against. Then the individual player's skills, styles and strategies can do all the talking. No room for cheap tricks to get a win. That's great multiplayer. I guess I'm just concerned about balance. Exotic abilities are a thing, and I'm sure there are going to be some crazy ones like the cloak from 'Closing Time'. You're absolutely right that they should be a thematic, tone-setting piece of gear and not just "really powerful". I would think it would be easier to balance the former with the counterplay of other abilities, but 'Thunderlord', unfortunately, is also very much in the game and I'm sure there are a dozen other exotics just like her. They're surely great fun for PvE, but they don't fundamentally improve the competitive multiplayer experience. How, oh how is it all going to work?? (sigh)... God, I love a thread that gets me thinking.

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  • I do recall a blue item I got that increased the amount of glimmer I picked up. So armor that increases likelihood of good pick ups seems......likely......

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  • Oh really? Blue items would be rare tier equipment, do you remember if it was a weapon or an armor piece?

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  • Edited by The Moon Master: 7/6/2014 9:40:09 PM
    It was gloves, which seems appropriate, lvl 10 I believe, I thought I took a picture, but I can't seem to find it. An yah, for some reason I like saying blues more then I like saying rares, stupid diablo and WoW.

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  • Whatever works, that's interesting, though I imagine that a slight increase in the amount of glimmer that you would earn pales in comparison to the effect an item which increased your exp gain or your drop rate would have on the player versus enemy metagame... thanks for sharing though :)

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  • It was the lowest level rare I found, so maybe that had something to do with why it had a mediocre benefit.

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  • Yeah I'd be curious to see how they set the level requirements on those things. It's probably ultimately arbitrary, but whether or not it's more informed by the base stats and attack / armor of an item or moreso the abillities placed on it.

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  • Great work with the post. I was looking forward to it. I wanted to point out that you could use "Ether Seeds" to grant a temporary bonus to glimmer gained by killing Fallen. I believe it was a 10 minute bonus. And I am not totally sure that was the name of the item.. just fairly certain. To be honest I am firmly against any system that positively effects loot drops. If that is in the design of the drop system then it is a failed system for Destiny. Proof in point is Diablo 3. It had both % currency find and % item find as affixes to items. It was so terrible that Blizzard has removed at least % item find from the system entirely. Granted that was a part of an overall larger problem but it was the most important factor. I feel that getting great items should be earned through completing great challanges more than Random chance. I know that it is a strong opinion but I'll stand by the statement. Random loot drops are a stagnant and outdated system.

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  • Edited by Hylebos: 7/7/2014 11:44:50 PM
    [quote]I feel that getting great items should be earned through completing great challanges more than Random chance. I know that it is a strong opinion but I'll stand by the statement. Random loot drops are a stagnant and outdated system.[/quote]I agree completely, I actually wrote [url=http://www.bungie.net/7_Destiny39s-Design-Exotic-Exclusivity/en/Forum/Post?id=64293430]another thread[/url] about that topic with regards to exotics a couple months back :) All the same though, I feel that random drops for the sub-exotics is largely harmless and helps to increase the variance of player experiences, any abillities which increased the rate of drops would definitely affect only those, not the exotics themselves :) I also share your waryness in general about the abillity, I just thought I'd bring it up anyways.

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  • Yah, I couldn't find a pattern in the alpha, but I felt like armor was def. a factor because only once did I see gear that was better armor then another despite being lower level, and it was 31 vs. 30 I think. Seeing as I won't be in town for the beta I'm relying in you and the community to figuire it out lol.

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