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1/30/2014 4:48:38 PM
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Wow... So it's inhumane to cut off an unnecessary part of their body when they're young because anesthesia doesn't work, but it's ok when they're grown up and there's more to cut off, and the person is more likely to remember it. If this is the path we're taking, why not just make it illegal to give birth to a person until they're old enough to give consent? Makes as much sense to me.
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[quote]why not just make it illegal to give birth to a person until they're old enough to give consent?[/quote] That's some Verbatim-tier reasoning you got there. I'm not even joking, he literally made a thread once making that argument.
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I won't retract that statement. There is some logic behind it.
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No, there isn't. Giving birth is naturally involuntary.
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yes, there is much derp in that logic.
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But being born can cause pain and behavioral problems, just like circumcision.
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Edited by Elrond Hubbard: 1/31/2014 10:35:24 PMBeing born is a natural part of life, circumcision isn't.
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You're leaving out one key issue: consent. A newborn baby cannot give consent to the procedure. An 18 year old can give consent, but can also, more importantly, give [i]informed[/i] consent.
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They probably won't, cause it will hurt like hell.
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So why would you do it to a newborn baby who will actually experience [i]more[/i] pain than an adult?
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Cause they won't remember.
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but it can also cause lifelong complications at that age.
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even the most experienced surgeons can't prevent skin and tissue deformities, etc. that are a risk with circumcision.
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Except that's not true. [quote]Circumcision has other harmful effects. Anand and Hickey write that [quote]the persistence of specific behavioral changes after circumcision in neonates implies the presence of memory. In the short term, these behavioral changes may disrupt the adaptation of newborn infants to their postnatal environment, the development of parent-infant bonding, and feeding schedules.18[/quote] Psychiatrist Rima Laibow agrees that circumcision significantly impairs mother-infant bonding.19 Other researchers conclude that circumcision has "behavioral and psychological consequences."20 The American Academy of Pediatrics Task Force on Circumcision notes increased irritability, varying sleep patterns, and changes in infant-maternal interaction after circumcision.21 Canadian investigators report that during vaccinations at age four to six months, circumcised boys had increased behavioral pain response and cried for significantly longer periods than did uncircumcised boys, a possible indication of post-traumatic stress disorder.22 Other long-term effects have not been studied.[/quote]http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/spectator.htm
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Give me as many internet facts as you want. I will tell you first hand that you're wrong.
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That's great. Go ahead and explain how those citations of published and peer-reviewed research I've posted are incorrect. Don't forget to collect your Nobel prize on the way out. And be careful not to embarrass yourself.
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I've never met a real person that complained about circumcision. Only internet people. Go enjoy your various memes and gifs, internet person. Stop wasting my time with your pointless hatred of a tradition multiple thousands of years old.
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Edited by Flee: 1/31/2014 3:17:02 PMI love how your "rebuttal" to highly valued, peer-reviewed and published scientific studies is "out of the circumcised people I met and got around talking to about their to about their genitals, I personally have never met someone who complained". You should have heeded Daz' warning not to embarrass yourself.
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Edited by Banned n3rd: 1/31/2014 3:22:40 PMWhat is the study based on? The opinions, behavior, and experiences of circumcised people. It's called qualitative evidence.
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Edited by Flee: 1/31/2014 4:52:49 PMThat study is actually a review of already existing studies. It merely gives an overview of what others have concluded. Regardless, it's the experiences and reactions of thousands and thousands of circumcised men all over the world studied and evaluated by experts who do so professionally. I think you too can see how that holds more weight than a random person saying "but from my experience..."
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Even with their broader research, they fail to find specific and significant effects. They simply say that it does cause behavioral differences. I would be surprised if everyone acted exactly the same whether or not they were circumcised because all people are so different. The only thing they address specifically is an impairment of infant mother bonding. I'm not sure why this is entirely negative. A child who is not as close with their mother will most likely develop their own identity and a more individual and adult mindset more easily than someone who is more emotionally connected with their parents. This means we will have fewer thirty year olds living in their mothers' basement.
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The one I linked? That's not a study in itself, it's called a literature review - a review of existing research on the topic. The citations provide references to the individual studies that make up the review. You will not be able to make a distinction between whether the individual source contained qualitative or quantitative research without checking each of them.
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1. Anecdotal evidence isn't going to cut it (excuse the pun) if you want be taken seriously here. 2. If you don't want to participate any more that's fine. Just leave, don't respond, and/or hide the topic. 3. The [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition]tradition argument[/url] doesn't work.
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There's a difference between anecdotal evidence and the first hand experiences of every circumcised male I know. I believe it should be up to the parents. They get to choose to have the child, they get to choose the child's name, they get to choose every single other thing about raising the child, so why not this?
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[quote]They get to choose to have the child, they get to choose the child's name, they get to choose every single other thing about raising the child, so why not this?[/quote]Justify why you want to be able to do it.
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You know what I love about this thread? Every argument you get into, you destroy their argument and they stop responding.
