Fusions are a blight on the game.

Shotgun* There, fixed it.

[quote]Shotgun* There, fixed it.[/quote] This game would have died a lot sooner if you would have been allowed your way more often. Maybe you should have just learned how to move and aim and you'd understand.

Maybe you should more like. No. The game wouldn't be as dead as it's ever been if it had dared to put any resources into it and had shifted away from the day one combo of HC and Shotgun after all these years.

[quote]Maybe you should more like. No. The game wouldn't be as dead as it's ever been if it had dared to put any resources into it and had shifted away from the day one combo of HC and Shotgun after all these years.[/quote] Why haven't you found success even once using such a combo?

Bzzz try again. HC and Shotgun have the max aim assist, peek shooting, instant win combo for the franchise history. Anyone dumb enough to deny those facts has NO clue about this game. It's NOT a fact denied by the top pro players.

[quote]Bzzz try again. HC and Shotgun have the max aim assist, peek shooting, instant win combo for the franchise history. Anyone dumb enough to deny those facts has NO clue about this game. It's NOT a fact denied by the top pro players.[/quote] And you have a clue about this game ? LMAOOOOOOOOO Listen up real close guys, we need to hear what the 0.6 has to say. If I want I can even teach you how to counter shotguns - it’s a generous offer.

Butt out baby boy.

Gyatt out. Come on add me and we can play a pm

Tell me your a child without telling me you're a child.

[quote]Bzzz try again. HC and Shotgun have the max aim assist, peek shooting, instant win combo for the franchise history. Anyone dumb enough to deny those facts has NO clue about this game. It's NOT a fact denied by the top pro players.[/quote] If it's an "instant win combo", why didn't you go flawless after 777 games of trials? After investing that amount of time and effort would the path of least resistance not occur to you? Did you try it? [b][i]Perhaps you did[/i][/b] and you understood it wasn't for you. That HC/Shotty didn't magically give you the win. So you clung to your fusions, pulses, and autos and when those didn't work enjoyed side arms and scouts cause you found similar levels of non-success with them. And now because you associate that distance with safety and you refuse to move to places that provide you an advantage, you have to rely on what the "top pro players" say to rebuke another's opinion. Players that CAN aim, shoot, and move. But you don't see them demanding HC Shotty be nerfed any more times. And even with that fusion plastered to your hand. Play what you want for fun, but then don't be mad when your success is left to chance.

Bzzz ad hominem fallacy. Completely irrelevant to Shotgun and HC mega-usage FACTS. These and NOT Fusions are crutches on beyond ALL OTHERS in the game. Again, top pros openly admit this. And when something more difficult - although not too much - counters bad Shotgun play players like you have an extended cry. Get over it. Shotgun is STILL the crutch of choice and is unlikely to ever change here.

[quote]Bzzz ad hominem fallacy. Completely irrelevant to Shotgun and HC mega-usage FACTS. These and NOT Fusions are crutches on beyond ALL OTHERS in the game. Again, top pros openly admit this. And when something more difficult - although not too much - counters bad Shotgun play players like you have an extended cry. Get over it. Shotgun is STILL the crutch of choice and is unlikely to ever change here.[/quote] I'm not attacking you. I'm pointing out the results of your beliefs and how it affects your bias.

Yes you are and instead of thinking or addressing the issue of overuse for the general ENTIRE PVP COMMUNITY. That is true for the whole game, it has nothing to do with me nor you either. Why don't I cheese it with that combo is irrelevant. (Trials, even more, I've never played to win, always solo-queued, always reset after 3 wins, never played it competitively - I only EVER do that in Iron Banner - only do that to scoop occasional loot even if that's cliff-jumping, and leave). And outside that I'm more than happy with less cheesy load outs. All of which is irrelevant to the argument.

[quote]Yes you are and instead of thinking or addressing the issue of overuse for the general ENTIRE PVP COMMUNITY. That is true for the whole game, it has nothing to do with me nor you either. Why don't I cheese it with that combo is irrelevant. (Trials, even more, I've never played to win, always solo-queued, always reset after 3 wins, never played it competitively - I only EVER do that in Iron Banner - only do that to scoop occasional loot even if that's cliff-jumping, and leave). And outside that I'm more than happy with less cheesy load outs. All of which is irrelevant to the argument.[/quote] I firmly believe in facts and statistics too. I am also aware that human experience isn't limited to just that. Part of our understanding occurs subjectively. Well adjusted people have thoughts, speech, and actions in alignment with their goals. The results for adjusting to feedback determines their level of success. They know that a specific action will ultimately lead to a certain outcome. Preferably the desired result. And they know where and when to expend their energy on the things they can control. And how to mitigate the damage and risks along the way. Adaptability. I don't need to dismantle your conversation point of "overuse". Anyone that can play Crucible beyond a Silver rank understands the choice of the most ardent sticking to HC/Shooty rather than standing back with a Pulse and pre-charging a fusion. So carry on having fun.

You don't "need to" dismantle but you SURE AS HELL just didn't, nor even made a credible counter-argument to those factual, Bungie-confirmed statistics. If you want to argue subjectivity you're going to need to point out actual, verified bias that disproves this. Both Shotgun and Fusion provide easy kills but they are no where near close, and the kill rates and usage rates solidly evidence Shotgun being BY FAR the bigger problem. Rose is as out of band as is some top PRs, as recent stats show. So this point is more about preference. Whether long-range PR shooting is inferior to hiding behind a rock and HC peek shooting, which you're suggesting is your take, is just that - preferences, opinion, subjectivity, and 5+ years of preferential habit.

[quote]You don't "need to" dismantle but you SURE AS HELL just didn't, nor even made a credible counter-argument to those factual, Bungie-confirmed statistics. If you want to argue subjectivity you're going to need to point out actual, verified bias that disproves this. Both Shotgun and Fusion provide easy kills but they are no where near close, and the kill rates and usage rates solidly evidence Shotgun being BY FAR the bigger problem. Rose is as out of band as is some top PRs, as recent stats show. So this point is more about preference. Whether long-range PR shooting is inferior to hiding behind a rock and HC peek shooting, which you're suggesting is your take, is just that - preferences, opinion, subjectivity, and 5+ years of preferential habit.[/quote] Pulse rifles being used collectively more than just those decidedly picking Rose has resulted in stagnant, boring slow paced games. The chart is to demonstrate kills over expected in relation to their usage. The presence of specific weapon classes on the field markedly affects how the game is played by everyone no matter your personal preference. Rose isn't "out of band". It's the only 140 worth using in the face of a persistent pulse meta. That is if you don't use Thorn, which they felt needed another buff. If you don't use Ace or Hawkmoon. That's why its usage is high. Notice how they pointed out Bygones as being egregiously out of band. Oh but Rose had more usage?! Oh no!! Collectively the active pulses outweigh the number of HC that are effective in play in the most competitive settings. It's apparently where Bungie wants it even if it's not where their long time Crucible players do. Shotguns is how the majority of capable Crucible players prefer to play. Pellet shotguns have been nerfed to a shadow of their former selves and back again. Reworks on pellet spread. That man power is spent because that's how people want to play. Even when they were in the dirty punishing you for being in the air, sliding on the ground, being shot (flinch), just RNG people chose them. Not because they were free. Not because they were the most used by others. Cause it's how they wanted to play. And all the people that can't play with a HC or a Shotty for the last 10 years whine and whine but can't demonstrate the same effectiveness with the combo. They die to them often cause they don't understand why they have the edge with them while they die continuously why it's in their own hands. Aside from the loud feedback of a small number of people that cling to the real crutch. For all the reasons they hate shotguns a fusion is strong with the only drawback being a charge time akin to or less than a primary weapon kill. Engaging in primary weapon distances. With an audio cue that is rarely synced to its actual prefire status. Fusions have also received reworks but they don't stay at 2% usage because they are weak. Rapid Fires alone are better than most shotguns at doing a shotguns job with a short charge time It is about preference. For Rose. For 140s vs 2 burst Pulse. For shotguns vs fusions. Or spray and pray crouch spam. One encourages sitting in a lane. Camping. Bot walking. The other encourages playing into all the things that used to set Destiny PvP uniquely apart. It doesn't need to be an E sport game. It also doesn't need to be constant cheese so everyone can feel like they did something. Certain philosophies cannot co-exist. The effort to please everyone, including those that never learned the basics of the game, and trying to honor their requests has stinted the games potential. Having arguments with people that do everything to assuage their own ego and misinterpreting information seems an effort in futility to a game struggling to keep it's last 77k Crucible players. Where is the evidence that when presented with truth you would accept it and change your way of thinking and improve your experience because of it. Best to just 🙉🙈 and ignoring the crucial 🙊. Right? (Sarcasm) You interpret statistics how ever you like. Their vision is not creating an environment that retains its longest standing players. That's why the numbers are going down. Amongst a bunch of other variables. Loot and perk rng. Trials not keeping people that just want freebies. Comp lacking. They will need to adjust. We had far more players when HC/Shotty was the ceiling instead of Elsie's/Khov/Bygones prismatic ability spam era. Numbers are going down. Pulses are not helping. Lorentz and Bastion were bad metas. That's why we return to what works. They just don't want it to stagnate so we have metas. But the worse crucible players in the world think they know what's best and make awful suggestions. When they listen to them they lose huge numbers of players and have to walk the bad choices back. And then they get louder.

Players are STILL maining the same HC/SG loadouts they started with and are locked in to. Its beyond boring and that's PART of the reason population has plummeted - the rest is almost entirely down to PvE-led global population itself plummeting. Pulses have NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING. They ALSO pointed out Rose being out of band. The people they listen to are the same as ever: streamers ie their free multi-millionaire (in some cases) promoters and themselves, with little eye for any change beyond temporary 'ship-hot to sell then nerf back' ethos. Meanwhile the same bedrock of the meta-game hasnt substantially shifted. Hiding behind a rock is no less passive than long-range PR shooting - that's just your complete bias. This and their massive aim assist has set the top meta in stone for years. It will never be anything like an e-sports qualifier because its so damn cheesey and almost impossible to have a sports-like level playing field, where players rise and fall on their own merits.

[quote]Players are STILL maining the same HC/SG loadouts they started with and are locked in to. Its beyond boring and that's PART of the reason population has plummeted - the rest is almost entirely down to PvE-led global population itself plummeting. Pulses have NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING. They ALSO pointed out Rose being out of band. The people they listen to are the same as ever: streamers ie their free multi-millionaire (in some cases) promoters and themselves, with little eye for any change beyond temporary 'ship-hot to sell then nerf back' ethos. Meanwhile the same bedrock of the meta-game hasnt substantially shifted. Hiding behind a rock is no less passive than long-range PR shooting - that's just your complete bias. This and their massive aim assist has set the top meta in stone for years. It will never be anything like an e-sports qualifier because its so damn cheesey and almost impossible to have a sports-like level playing field, where players rise and fall on their own merits.[/quote] Yes. The population plummeted for the entire game cause the 10 year saga of light and dark ended and they didn't make clear where we were going fast enough for anyone to care. Crucible, which is a reason to log on when there's only 30 minutes of story added every few months, is hemorrhaging people. The pulse meta is a factor believe it or not. People are CHOOSING Rose as the only effective HC in the face of that Pulse meta. HC is boring for who? Bronze, Silver, and lower Gold pulse/auto/jade rabbit players? Rose is a choice. Quote what they said about Rose vs What they said about Bygones. Show me what they said about Thorn. And Exotic 140. Moving up to and between rocks and peek shooting to secure and objective, heavy, clean up or spawn swap is far superior gameplay to camping the lane leading from spawn and never moving. It doesn't need to be an esport to not end up a shade of its former self by listening to people that ask for nerfs to the only unique gameplay to Destiny. People that ask for slide nerfs, in air accuracy nerfs. People that think shotguns are free.

If it's a factor, it's a negligible one in comparison to global decline. And Bygones' High Ground is merely part of the well worn cycle of things shipped (and reshipped) hot just to nerf again. It's already started and when the next inevitable nerf comes out to high ground it'll be something else. Players DON'T "just choose" typically - especially over time where fads run out - they follow the easiest, most effective options. That's the nature of the game. Players of course just want to win. So they don't "just choose" Rose, HCs, or Shotguns disproportionately, it's they're strongest, easiest disproportionately. One is not more aggressive, less passive, inferior or superior to the other. Your take on one-side is just that, no more. It will never be an report in it's fundamental current state. It's a non-serious, very lopsided party game. They don't listen to folks calling for nerds anymore than they do from those who call for buffs. They ship them hot.... The surface changes in cycles, whilst below has barely moved. Shotgun is overused by a whopping margin. They are generally afraid of getting it's major counter, Fusion, too strong as Hercules said that would be even more oppressive than this perennial Shotgun meta. But other than that they have no solutions. Shotgun reigns.

[quote]If it's a factor, it's a negligible one in comparison to global decline. And Bygones' High Ground is merely part of the well worn cycle of things shipped (and reshipped) hot just to nerf again. It's already started and when the next inevitable nerf comes out to high ground it'll be something else. Players DON'T "just choose" typically - especially over time where fads run out - they follow the easiest, most effective options. That's the nature of the game. Players of course just want to win. So they don't "just choose" Rose, HCs, or Shotguns disproportionately, it's they're strongest, easiest disproportionately. One is not more aggressive, less passive, inferior or superior to the other. Your take on one-side is just that, no more. It will never be an report in it's fundamental current state. It's a non-serious, very lopsided party game. They don't listen to folks calling for nerds anymore than they do from those who call for buffs. They ship them hot.... The surface changes in cycles, whilst below has barely moved. Shotgun is overused by a whopping margin. They are generally afraid of getting it's major counter, Fusion, too strong as Hercules said that would be even more oppressive than this perennial Shotgun meta. But other than that they have no solutions. Shotgun reigns.[/quote] If HC shooty is so easy why doesn't putting that combo on give you free trials flawesses. High comp rank. A better win rate. A better kd? Your accuracy? It's almost like it depends on wielder. I noticed the people that consistently complain about them all have one thing in common. ....so you understand buffs to fusions would make them too oppressive. Great. Have fun playing Destiny how ever you like 👍🏽

That's not what the statistics show. And another ad hominem is another argument failure. I've zero interest in Trials - none at all. I do just fine without spending time hiding behind a rock playing peek a boo and intermittently playing the weapons I like. Again. All irrelevant to the usage and kill rate stats. And, no. I didn't complain about them YOU'RE complaining. You're crutching on HC and Crutchgun and hating on PRs. I made no complaints about anything - this is Destiny. No, that was Mercules comment in Dev livestreams, he fears if they buff them to match the Crutchgun, they'd take over. So they stick to the same old tired crap of the 6 years of HC Crutchgun with peaks and troughs of minor temporary additional metas.

[quote]That's not what the statistics show. And another ad hominem is another argument failure. I've zero interest in Trials - none at all. I do just fine without spending time hiding behind a rock playing peek a boo and intermittently playing the weapons I like. Again. All irrelevant to the usage and kill rate stats. And, no. I didn't complain about them YOU'RE complaining. You're crutching on HC and Crutchgun and hating on PRs. I made no complaints about anything - this is Destiny. No, that was Mercules comment in Dev livestreams, he fears if they buff them to match the Crutchgun, they'd take over. So they stick to the same old tired crap of the 6 years of HC Crutchgun with peaks and troughs of minor temporary additional metas.[/quote] [u]I don't care to change your mind. [/u] [b]You don't care about Trials.[/b] [i]Great[/i]. You have said as much. [u]You don't play things to win or be competitive[/u]. I've told you HAVE FUN. I don't know what else you need to hear. I've told you how I feel about it. You do fine without peekshooting if fine is playing at your current skill level. But you talk as if you understand Crucible. Just about anyone other than people matching your skill and mindset can see that despite your talk, you don't play Crucible to succeed. So people can value that as they see fit. Usage and kills over expected are not the only relevant factors as you have been repeatedly told but ignore. That's why I said this conversation is pointless. You will go on failing, I just needed to state I'm not in agreement with you like most of your other assessments. Yes. Rose is the most used HC. Pulses are collectively used far more and the game is slow and boring now. Right. And while I don't always agree with Mercules, he understands how quickly everyone would use fusions if they were stronger in any capacity by your testimony here. Great. Glad you understand. Have a good day 👍🏽