You’re a Tolkien fan, right?

Yep!

I’m a big nerd too. What’d you think of the Rings of Power trailer that dropped yesterday?

Finally saw the trailer. Looks promising. Looks like they are drawing material from the Eldar days to set the context for the Second Age. Good idea if used sparingly. Clearly continuing the “Forgotten History” tone of Jackson’s movies. There’s one shot that is clearly of Valinor, with a golden tree that is clearly Lauerlin. The tree whose fruit ultimately gave rise to the Sun, after Morgoth and Ungoliant destroyed the Trees and brought an end to the Ages of Starlight. Nice work. Not sure if I like the “Arwenification” of warrior-Galadriel. But that may be a necessary concession to modern audiences. She is a necessary lynchpin to the LOTRs, and her rise to coequal leadership status with Elrond after the death of Gil-galad, and above that of Thranduil needs to be credible. To Tolkien geeks, the fact that she pure-bred Noldor/High Elf/Calaquendi is enough. But the casual viewer will likely need more. I’ll reserve judgment until I see what happens. I disliked Cate Blanchett’s portrayal of her in LOTRs, but I warmed to it in the Hobbit movies.

Something I’ve been thinking about for the past few days is who will play sauron. I honestly want to see Jake Gyllenhaal play sauron, I think his work in Nightcrawler could really bring a lot to Sauron’s personality. Who do you think would play sauron well?

Tough question. You need someone extremely handsome, but who also has a very credible dark streak to his personality. Someone like a Christian Bale or Viggo Mortensen. Part of what made Viggo’s portrayal of Aragorn so powerful was that he was a dangerous man who was held in check only by his sense of honor and duty. He realized that about himself. So he resisted the call to power until circumstances forced it upon him. Viggo could go there and give that sense of inner darkness just below the surface. He played a very disturbing Lucifer in the movie “The Prophecy” right before doing LOTRs. I still remember decades later one of his lines on the movie. The hero steps out into the dark and is startled by Viggo’s Lucifer perched on a wall like a bird of prey. The hero exclaims in shock and surprise, “Jesus!”. Viggo hops down off the wall and says in a matter of fact tone that is just dripping with cold malice: [i]No. Not Jesus. Jesus loves you. I don’t…..[/i] The skin on my arms stood up and started marching in formation…. You sensed that his Lucifer was capable of killing and eating you simply because he was bored and wanted to see what your insides looked like… That’s what the role needs. I’m not familiar enough with young actors who have that vibe who could pull it off. It’s more important that you get the right actor than it is to get a famous one. Christian Bale wasn’t that well know when he did the Batman trilogy. But he was the right mix of heroic intensity and genuinely bat--blam!- crazy to pull off a dark Batman. The only guy who springs to mind (but he’s too old, imo) is the guy who plays a retired Batman in the tv series Titans. He plays Bruce Wayne as a high-functioning sociopath, who is both intimidating and cold. Criminals weren’t afraid of the suit. They were scared shitless of the man wearing it. A Batman who could have beaten you to death, and never lost a second of sleep over it. But stops short of killing you because that’s what he chooses to do. He stops himself. You had no power to stop him at all. His Bruce Wayne was a scary man to watch move through the world. https://youtu.be/OMfPs7LmBwo [i]The eyes still give me the creeps….[/i] That energy is what you need behind Sauron the Deceiver.

What about Tom Hiddleston? He looks exactly the part of we’re trying for his fair form, and his portrayal of Loki really fits the persona. Edit: I can completely agree about viggo, but I don’t think Amazon could justify that with fans or themselves due to, of course, his role as Aragorn. Also Charles Andrews was cast as Celebrimbor.

I thought about him. Close, but not quite. He was the perfect choice for Loki because the air about him is more one of resentment and a love of chaos, rather than maliciousness. Which is why he remains likeable despite all the awful things he does. Sauron was one who craved order, and Morgoth corrupted that into malicious and a desire for domination and control. If you watched the video, this portrayal of Bruce Wayne is more what I see in Sauron. Bruce speaks the words you’d expect to hear from a loving father, but there is NO love or softness. In his tone. He knows the words, but he can’t hear the music. He is a protector and pure, remorseless predator. God help you if you get on his bad side. In one episode, the Joker kills Robin (Jason Todd)… and Bruce hunts him down and kills him without a shred of emotion. It was an execution. That’s the Sauron that I imagine presenting himself to Celebrimbor and the Kings of Westernesse. Someone whom your better judgment says not to trust, but he’s telling you what you want to hear…and telling you it’s okay to do what you want to do any way (Celebrimbor)… …or worse, what you know you shouldn’t even think of doing. But your pride and sense of entitlement has long since slapped a muzzle on your conscience. So they give in… Celebrimbor pulls back from the edge in time enough to save Middle-earth, but not himself. The Lords of Westerness, OTOH, follow him to their utter ruin.

Haven’t seen it yet. But what I’ve seen so far, I like. Limiting the scope of the series to the Second Age, and the wars against Sauron was a smart move. Strong tie-in with LOTRs and the success of Peter Jackson’s movies. Also the narrative scope it limited enough to capture and hold people’s attention. I’m unconcerned about the controversy. Too many Tolkien fans hold to the books like they are sacred texts. So they resent ANY changes. Even when those changes are necessary to accommodate the medium (eg good movie making) or to accommodate modern audiences. Similar complaints were made about the movies before release, and Jackson’s and Boyens work was nothing short of brilliant. All in all, I’m looking forward to it, and applaud Amazon’s willingness to step into the circle, just like New Line did 25 years ago. They bet big and won.

I completely agree, my only fear is that Amazon will try to make their own GOT out of it. I’m really excited for all the second-age story and maybe even a glimpse of Morgoth. I wonder who will play fair-form Sauron.

No. Morgoth is gone. You’d only see him in some sort of flashback. But the narrative scope of the Second Age of the Sun is pretty meaty. We’re talking the Rise and Fall of Westerness…the Creation of Gondor and Arnor. The wars against the Witch-king of Angmar (Lord of the Nazgûl), and the War of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. As well as a chance to see what the Noldor (High Elves) were like. The only High Elves that were part of the story by the time of the Book of Westmarch (LOTR) were Galadriel and her husband Celeborn…and their portrayal was the only thing I was unhappy with in the Jackson films. Remember Elrond and Arwen were only half-elven, and Legolas was a Sindarin elf. Which means he is a descendant of elves that never saw the Light of Aman directly, but only experienced it indirectly through Melian the Maiar’s marriage to Elu Thingol. So the storytelling potential here is huge. But the scope of time is small enough as to lose and confuse people which is a major problem with trying to read The Silmarillion as a novel 🤕

I do mean a flashback. If this show is successful I hope they go back even further. Imagine having Ancalligon The Black in a series, that battle (which I forgot the name of) would be a cinematic masterpiece.

It could but perfect is the enemy of good enough. Jackson damaged the Hobbit movies by trying to turn one book into three movies….and the material got spread to thin. The Silmarillion is more of an anthology of the lore of Middle-earth than it is a book. The first time I read it, I quit in frustration. The [i]second [/i] time I literally had to have pen and paper in hand so I could keep track of people locations so that I could make sense of it all. So the farther you go back, the larger the sweeps of time you invoke, the larger the number of individuals come into play…and the more you risk losing and confusing the casual viewer. Part of the brilliance of Jackson and Boyens work is they knew the LOTRs intimately enough that they were able to [i]streamline[/i] the books in a way that preserved the character of the work for all but the most rabid Tolkien fans, while keeping it understandable for first time viewers. The decision to include relevant material from the appendices and from the Silmarillion was huge. I still remember my excitement when I saw FOTR in the theater, and saw the prologue. Realizing that they were starting with Dagorlad and and Isildur’s inability to destroy the Ring? My reaction was “YES!!!”. Only someone who knew the body of work VERY well would have understood the benefit of doing that….and I knew them and there that it was going to be a hell of a ride driven by other people who knew and loved the work! They treated the Ring as if it were a character with its own backstory, and it helped make the movie what it was. But sometimes more isn’t better. Sometimes it’s just more, and one needs to be careful.

[quote]I quit in frustration.[/quote] I can heavily relate. I’m going to try what you did, as I’ve tried and failed to read the book twice. Here’s one thing I sadly expect from Amazon. They’re going to finish this series and of course they’ll want to do another Tolkien project and so will everyone else. They could lose their heads and try to make a LOTR sequel off of the [i]little[/i] amount of information we have on Tolkien (I believe it was titled) Tree Of Shadow LOTR sequel. Filling in the blanks of a Tolkien story would be more disastrous than The Rise Of Skywalker.

That would be arrogance. Tolkien couldn’t even pen a sequel to his own work…and the storytelling potential is weak. Aragorn’s (Elessar) rein was largely one of clean up work. Chasing down the last or the orcs and putting them to the sword. The last of the Elves sailing West to fulfill their bargain with the Valar. The men of Gondor making peace with the men of the East and South. The far easier and productive path would be to continue trying to mine The Silmarillion, and documenting the Eldar days. The tale of the wars between Morgoth and the Noldor would be far more interesting. Especially for what Amazon would want from it.

Exactly. I would like to note that Tolkien did right a few chapters of a sequel that took place after Aragorn’s death. A few chapters were leaked after his death and you can go read them right now. Back to the Sillmarilion. They could literally mine that for twenty years. I’m sure a director like Peter Jackson could streamline a full Sillmarilion. It would do better as a series than a movie trilogy. The thing I’m most excited about for TROP (I guess we can call it that?) is of course Sauron. We only got a glimpse of his physical form and combat in LOTR. I really hope we get to see him fight in this series. I want to see him (Especially his fair-form) portrayed as it was in the Shadow Of Mordor games.

That's going to be the most interesting aspect of it. In the LOTRs movies the main villain is the Ring itself....then the various evil creatures and minions who did Sauron's bidding. Which was a smart move on Jackson and Boyen's part. Sauron was simply too distant and too nebulous of a threat to propel a movie. He became more of a direct presence in the Hobbit movies, as they went with Tolkien's ret-conning the Hobbit into a LOTRs prequel.....and Bilbo's tale from a children's story into a pre-emptive strike against a resurgent Sauron (Necromancer of Dol Guldor) But Amazon has an opportunity to explore the full range of Sauron's personality, as well as how Morgoth managed to corrupt his natural wish for order, into a horrific need for control and to dominate the wills of other beings. As well has his ability to mislead and seduce them into doing his bidding. Not only the Elves of Eregion (?...I'm really testing my memory) and getting Celebrimbor to forge the Rings of Power.... ...but also to seduce the Men of Westernesse to turn their backs upon the Valar and to (in a act of pure insanity) try to storm the shores of Valinor itself. Thinking they could take immortality by force.

I tell people that the ring is the real villain, it somehow gets an amazing reaction from non-Tolkien fanatics. I forgot about celebrimbor! We’ll probably see him in later seasons of the show. There’ll be five seasons if you didn’t know.

Yep. Can’t tell the story of The Second Age without him.

What about a series about Feanor and his sons? I know there would be a lot of history they would need to fill in before doing so but his part in the silmarillion is one of, if not the most vital role in the book. There would be so much content available and Feanor himself is such an interesting and deep character. EVERYONE hates him on both sides of the spectrum of good and evil. All of his failures and triumphs would make for a very dramatic and legitimately awesome show.