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3/16/2021 11:27:03 AM
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Because primaries are underpowered.
At that level of play, the TTK is simply too long.....and there is simply too much time for a good player to run away from a losing gunfight.
Which means that 1v1 primary duels are a waste of time. No one ever really has to commit to the fight....and if you do....it just makes you vulnerable to getting teamshot.
Which is why Comp and Trials is about special weapon spam, and ability spam. Those are the only weapons that kill fast enough to force a result from an encounter.
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Primaries are definitely underpowered but that's what Bungie tried circumventing with pinnacles. Pre nerf Luna / NF, Recluse, all of these were what should have been the base line for ALL Primaries in both function and TTK
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Um....yeah. But from a PVE perspective. Vanilla D2 launched and left our Guardians horribly underpowered. So Bungie spent the next year shovelling and throwing power at us with both hands in an effort to fix the problem and save the franchise. The problem is this created MASSIVE power creep in their effort to fix the loot problems and the lack of power in a single go. What Bungie needed to do was to simply tune the sandbox so that it resembled vanilla D1. Vanilla D1 had primary weapons that were strong enough to allow a player to stand their ground and fight off a shotgun rusher....as well as take on an over-agressive sniper an force them to back down. I THINK that's what you mean by Pinnacles being the baseline for all primaries in terms of "function and TTK" if I'm understanding you correctly.....
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We should just go back to end-of-D1 PvP ammo economy. - Players do not drop ammo from death. - Players spawn with 2-3 special ammo. - Special ammo crates spawn through the match and any nearby teammates get ammo too. - Heavy ammo crates spawn 1-2 times per match and all nearby teammates get the ammo. This forces people to ration their special ammo and prevents entire matches of nothing by special weapon kills. It forces engagements for control of the crates themselves. On the heavy side, it also helps with poorly-thought-out Iron Banner bounties, as more people get heavy ammo. :-)
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Its no use. I have been praying for this since D1 Y1.
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Edited by TheArtist: 3/16/2021 2:01:37 PMThat was more like what the ammo economy was when the Crucible (imo) was at its best. The ammo economy at the end of D-1 was: -You spawned without special ammo, and lost whatever you had on death. -Special ammo was only obtained from the crates. All this did was distort play beyond recognition. 1. It gave us sidearm spam and fusion grenade spam which was a 1000x worse. As well as make sidearms and other weapons that bypassed the special ammo restrictions Crucible and Trials meta. 2. People didn't ration their special ammo. Play just STALLED until special ammo became available...and they shotgun rushers and sniper spammers just ignored the game objectives and camped the ammo boxes. Which is why I keep saying you are not going to solve this problem...EVER...until the issue of primary weapons lack of power and the unworkably slow TTK is addressed. All you'll do by trying "fix" the symptoms (spammy play) is make the problem worse....and distort play as people find workaround that gets them a TTK that keeps up with the pace of play.
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All the more reason to look into special ammo.
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No. Because it doesn't WORK. All you wind up doing is breaking special weapons....and then people fall back on mobbing up and teamshooting to accomplish the same goal. That is why vanilla Destiny 2 and its Crucible was such a disaster. Bungie eliminated special weapons entirely ("made them **power** weapons) that required heavy ammo. So all they managed to do was drive any sort of 1v1 dueling out of the game entirely. Because the game became an exercise in massed fire. Which meant the game became an incredibly passive exercise in team shooting. ...and then when heavy ammo did appear, and the OHK weapons came out? They were even MORE frustrating to play against, because only one side had it....and there were absolutely NO counters to its use. Nerfing special weapons has never, and will never solve this problem. It just keeps making the problem worse....and broadening its reach into the game and distorting game play.
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Never said nerf special weapons, keep them strong, just give people a reason to think about their special ammo usage. Right now, you can spam your special with zero absolutely zero regard for whether you hit or miss a target, as you’ll either get more on a kill or die, respawn, and have two shots waiting for you. No thinking needed. I want special ammo to live up to its name, otherwise it should be called spammo.
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Starving a weapon of ammo IS a nerf. ...and Bungie has tried all variations of this between D1 and D2, and NONE of them work. You will never fix the problem unitl you FIX the problem. The problem isn't special weapons. The problem is we have primary weapons that kill too slowly for how fast we can move. Because of this, it is IMPOSSIBLE for Bungie to tune the sandbox properly. So they PUNT, and try to limit access to ammo. Which no other competitive shooter I've ever played has had to do. As long as you have this imbalance, you will have special weapon spam. The more you try to limit their ammo, the more you incentivize spammy play (use it while you got it).... ...and if you eliminate them, you damage the sandbox even worse. Because you incentivize team shooting and ability spamming. Like a weed, the problem won't go away until you pull out the root.
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Edited by IAGNRG: 3/16/2021 1:00:43 PMThe root is special ammo, not primary ammo. Talking about a weapon system rework would be another post, because I agree something needs done, but this post is about special ammo and it’s over saturated economy. I believe the root to be too much special ammo, which is why I am advocating for a reduction in its prevalence. I don’t want zero ammo like year 1, but current state is oversaturated. There has to be a solution to it, and that’s on bungie to find. We can suggest solutions all day long, but it’s their dev team that is here to improve the game. [spoiler]Of which I’d love to see these changes tested publicly but that’s [i]also[/i] another post for another time.[/spoiler]
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Edited by TheArtist: 3/16/2021 4:01:23 PMNo. Bungie nerfed EVERY aspect of shotgun play in the three years of Destiny 1. Range, handling, ammo, crit damage. In an effort to stop or slow down their usage. To the tune of TWENTY-THREE nerfs in less than three years...and all that effort solved NOTHING. Either the problem of special weapon spam came back....or transformed into something even worse. All with the common effect of keeping TTK in a range needed to keep up with the pace of play. The problem is not special ammo. If you TUNE the game properly you don't HAVE to starve special weapons of their ammo in order to balance the sandbox. The fact that Bungie has to keep resorting to this is their ADMISSION that they can't balance things properly. They can't because perimaries kill too slowly. So once you reach a certain level of play, primaries simply can't keep up with how fast the game moves. People move too fast. They make decisions too quickly....and primaries can't keep up. So people either mob up and team shoot.....or they spam special weapons and abilities that CAN keep up with the speed of play. [quote]There has to be a solution to it, and that’s on bungie to find.[/quote] There is a story about a holy fool named " Nasruddin". A holy fool is someone who at first glance appears foolish, but when understood in context is actually quite wise, and their actions show the foolishness of many things average people do and is considered normal. One day a traveler comes by late in the evening and finds a man on hands and knees searching under a street light. He walks up and it is Nasruddin. He asks Nasruddin what he was looking for, and Nasruddin replies, " My house keys. I've lost them." The Traveler replies, "Well, where where you when you last had them". Nasruddin replies, " Why I was inside my house". The Traveler winces, and asks, "Well, if you last had them inside of your house, WHY are you looking for them outside under a street light?" Nasruddin replied, "BECAUSE THE LIGHT IS BETTER OUT HERE." Bungie trying to fix the Crucible's special weapon problem by continuing to alter special weapons is like Nasruddin looking for his house keys under the light. Its easier....but it never solves the problem because its not dealing with what is the actual SOURCE of the problem. You'll never solve a problem if you constantly keep looking in the wrong place for solution, just because you believe that the solution "should" be there. When the results keep telling you that it isn't.
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Primaries are fine. Special weapons are fine. Oversaturated ammo economy? Not fine. I understand the buff mentality, but that’s not the solution, nor is a nerf to special weapons at all what I am advocating for. As I’ve said, keep them strong, they should be. I want ammo to mean something, to live up to its name, rather than being so prevalent it’s as though you can use a special as a primary. The current system does not work with regard to this vision, and it is plaguing the crucible. You may believe buffing primaries will help, that’s fine, believe what you will, but that’s not my point or my goal, for I don’t think it’s the root cause. Special ammo is too prevalent, and I aim to reduce its prevalence in order to improve the state of the game.
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Edited by TheArtist: 3/16/2021 4:17:41 PM[i]"The Light is Better out here......" [/i] You are insisting on something that has already been tried....and failed. Because it is not the ROOT of the problem. Just like Nasruddin would never find those keys outside under the street lamp, because the keys were actually inside the house.
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Edited by AuraFlash: 3/17/2021 2:12:17 AMkill time on Primaries is fine, One shot guns always available isn't. You SHOULDN'T be running around with a special weapon the entire match without consequences. As it is, as long as Special drops like candy in the crucible, the more people will complain about Special weapons. the current time to kill [b]on average for every primary[/b] is 1.0 to 0.8 secs, any slower and you could peak and be deleted with no reaction time. You need to be able to get into cover when getting shot at and hit and that's what's so bad with one hit guns and 2 tapping 120's, you don't GET to react. The TTK is fine, it's the special weapon Economy. There's a way to balance it and not everyone is gonna like the change, resource management SHOULD be a skill too.
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Edited by TheArtist: 3/17/2021 11:47:40 AM1. No they arent'. Which is why special weapons feel so oppressive and why so many of you are (incorrectly) calling to have them reined in. Primaries don't kill fast enough to keep up with the pace of play. So no one (of above average skill or higher) EVER has to commit to a primary fight. High skill players AVOID primary gun fights because they take too long and leave you too vulnerable to being team shot....or being picked off by smeone using a special weapon.....and they dont' allow for the sandbox to be balanced because they can't enforce ANY sort of range disadvantage for special weapons. 2. Why not? The issue isn't runnign around with a OHK weapon the entire match (EVERY OTHER SHOOTER ALLOWS IT WITHOUT A PROBLEM). Its only a problem in Destiny because primaries can't KILL fast enough to pose any credible threat to someone with a special weapon, or impose any sort of disadvantage if the special weapon user gets caught out of their own weapons optimum range. Catch me up tho short-mid-range with a shotgun in my hand? I'LL JUST RUN STRAIGHT AT YOU, and face tank your damage. If you try to stand your ground? I'm fast enough to get into shotgun range and kill you before your primary can kill me. Catch me farther away....or if you start to backpedal to by the time and space your underpowered primary needs? I just run away to cover. 3. If you always have time to run away to cover after being shot at....THEN YOU HAVE EFFECTIVELY REMOVED ANY SORT OF PENALTY FOR OVER-AGGRESSION OR POOR-POSITIONING. You've just turned the game into a contest of reaction time. Because you have just eliminated any sort of advantage that SMART play would give. The TTK needs to be at about 0.6 seconds. That time leaves enough time for counterplay after getting shot at if you break for cover immediately. But is short enough to force you to commit to a fight if you try to stand your ground. It also gives the accurate player the ability to stand their ground and fend off poorly executed shotgun rushes.....and force sloppy snipers to back down IOW, it will allow this game's PVP sandbox to FINALLY balance primary weapons vs special weapnos (like every other comp shooter).... ....and make the issue of ammo supply moot. Because you have NOW finally imposed a range penalty on special weapons, and forced players to be far more SELECTIVE in when and how they're used. Bungie needed to manipulate the ammo supply is their admission that they can' BALANCE special weapons properly....and they cant' balance them because primaries are underpowered relative to the speed of play. 4. Cripple special weapon play by taking away their ammo (Bungie has already tried this in vanilla D2), and all you're going to get is people falling back on massed fire and team shooting. The game will devolve into an oppressive, PASSIVE meta of rolling around in a mob and team shooting anything that moves in objective based games. And camping in the tiniest part of the map, and team shooting all the lines of approach in modes like Clash. Out of the frying pan and into the fire....
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Edited by AuraFlash: 3/18/2021 3:39:09 AM[quote]1. No they arent'. Which is why special weapons feel so oppressive and why so many of you are (incorrectly) calling to have them reined in. Primaries don't kill fast enough to keep up with the pace of play. So no one (of above average skill or higher) EVER has to commit to a primary fight. High skill players AVOID primary gun fights because they take too long and leave you too vulnerable to being team shot....or being picked off by smeone using a special weapon.....and they dont' allow for the sandbox to be balanced because they can't enforce ANY sort of range disadvantage for special weapons. [/quote] You're not suppose to WANT to commit to primary fight if you're being shot at, you should disengage and force THEM into a primary fight. No mater what you should engage on YOUR terms REGARDLESS. The reason no one wants to commit to a primary fight is because Everyone has Green ammo. it's more lucrative to risk the one shot because the Reward is far Greater then the risk it happens. It's because of this that Gameplay is so slow in comp, However, 0.6 seconds is WAY to low of a TTK, almost every game has a TTK over a second with VERY few outliers. Not only that, but, if the TTK was to low, abilities can't be balanced properly for that low ttk and thus Ability play would either be worthless in PVP or overpowered. Lowering the TTK on Primaries isn't an option, hell, 120 HC's can have a 0.6 TTK and no one has time to react to being shot at that point. The average has a .25 seconds to START reacting to visual reaction, that's already have the time and you'll be dead before you move back into cover. [quote] 2. Why not? Why not? The issue isn't runnign around with a OHK weapon the entire match (EVERY OTHER SHOOTER ALLOWS IT WITHOUT A PROBLEM). [/quote] Majority of them reward skill or are super risky to pull off. The problem with the OHK weapons in destiny are NITHER of those things. Snipers have insane Aim assist at long range and shot guns can map you at a decent distance consistently. Add on the fact that those guns are HITSCAN and they are click you're dead weapons. The ONLY shotguns that rewards a semblance of skill is Slugs and even then the boom slap is so fast you don't usually have time to react. [quote]3. If you always have time to run away to cover after being shot at....THEN YOU HAVE EFFECTIVELY REMOVED ANY SORT OF PENALTY FOR OVER-AGGRESSION OR POOR-POSITIONING. You've just turned the game into a contest of reaction time. Because you have just eliminated any sort of advantage that SMART play would give. [/quote] 1.0 seconds doesn't give you all the time in the world to get into cover. a miss press, an eye twitch, a slight hesitation is enough to make or break a kill. COD has an average TKK Higher then 1.0 seconds yet no one complains about the TTK being to High, and it's probably the fastest game right now outside of destiny. Also, a SMART play would be FORCING the enemy to engage you, for if you DO have to engage after they have engaged you, you've lost the advantage. the Current TTK for primaries is FINE, it gives enough room for players to make risky plays while still securing kills and rewarding smart plays. I don't see anyone arguing here that the TTK on primaries is too high...except you....because you also got to remember player FEEL and if it's too fast, it won't FEEL good. [quote] 4. Cripple special weapon play by taking away their ammo (Bungie has already tried this in vanilla D2), and all you're going to get is people falling back on massed fire and team shooting. The game will devolve into an oppressive, PASSIVE meta of rolling around in a mob and team shooting anything that moves in objective based games.[/quote] Who said anything about TAKING AWAY special ammo, i said REDUCE AVAILABLITY. No matter what, due to the power Special weapons have, it will ALWAYS be coveted. a one hit kill is 0.0 seconds after the pull of the trigger, it BEATS TTK of ANY gun. There are WAYS to figure out how to make it work without making the TTK way to low on primaries, which you are CURRENTLY suggesting.
