I would argue that forcing everyone to use the same guns makes that game more stale compared to when only a few people used different guns. A few people using different guns and most people using the same guns is more enjoyable to me than literally everyone using the same guns. Just clarifying that I am a pvp player and I see no reason for sunsetting to affect pvp and I see no benefit that sunsetting gives to pvp.

[quote]I would argue that forcing everyone to use the same guns makes that game more stale compared to when only a few people used different guns. A few people using different guns and most people using the same guns is more enjoyable to me than literally everyone using the same guns. Just clarifying that I am a pvp player and I see no reason for sunsetting to affect pvp and I see no benefit that sunsetting gives to pvp.[/quote] To be blunt the community force loadouts themselves. Bungie in some way are taking that away to a degree. But I'll address your PvP side of things. If you're in the endgame of it Trials / IB for example. There will come a point you won't see the likes Mountaintop or Revoker because even with their intrinsics / broken stuff the power cap will weaken them significantly. Making it more trouble than worth to use them.

But we could just nerf the guns that are too good, that’s how you balance the game. The game isn’t balanced by taking the op guns out of endgame but leaving them op in casual. If you do that then it just leaves casual pvp ruined.

[quote]But we could just nerf the guns that are too good, that’s how you balance the game. The game isn’t balanced by taking the op guns out of endgame but leaving them op in casual. If you do that then it just leaves casual pvp ruined.[/quote] That's just it though. Casual PvP means nothing. If it meant something they would've included it. That and they had to rely on some Casual end of the game to allow for people to keep their old guns. Can't solve all the issues with Nerfs. Looks simple but takes time. You're looking for a needle in a large archetype haystack. Look how long it took to nerf Lord of Wolves and Hard light. So in this spot it's Bungie making things easier for themselves. Can't knock them for it. We'd all love an easier life right? No game will ever be 100% balanced and nerfing guns isn't the 100% fix. If we had balance we'd all use white spoons to fight.

Buffs and nerfs are literally the best way to solve power creep. Revoked has infinite ammo and too little zoom? Replace it’s perk with mulligan and add 10 zoom on it. Mountain top is busted and annoying? Reduce its blast radius a good amount and maybe reduce its handling. Beloved is the most used energy snipe? Reduce its aim assist by 18, its shouldnt be that high with that good perks. The best way I see to remove power creep on shotguns would be to completely remove QuickDraw. I guess you could reduce erentils range by 7 or something but I don’t see much power creep on fusions. To get rid of Hc power creep you need to buff the other hc archetypes. Also reduce 600 auto damage by 1.5-2, they ruin all primary gunfights on console. There, I did it. The game is 10 times more balanced than before. Crazy how some buffs and nerfs can balance the game and make power creep much less that before. Let me ask you one more thing. Isn’t being forced to use a gun simply because it has a higher power level similar to having to use a gun because it’s stats or perks are better than another gun? And isn’t that a form of power creep? So doesn’t sunsetting cause power creep?

As for buffs and nerfs. Are you accounting for PvE content as well?

[quote]The game cannot grow if it remains stale.[/quote] Me actually wanting to grind weapons (presunset state of mind) vs Me going to just use the first weapons i find and stop there because what's the point to stress about "good" weapons when we can melee our way through 90% of the content. Pretty sure the latter is the stale content

Growing as in sunsetting Beloved and then getting a beloved wrapped in fabric? Growin as in getting a reprised version of Gnawing Hunger while the one i already had is getting sunsetted? Growing as in allowing sunsetted weapons to remain in the game and still can be used in older activities that don't have power restrictions? Oh, by the way we are removing 85% of older activities. Bungie isn't making room for anything new from sunsetted gear.... it is still in the game, nothing was removed... but speaking of removed content. Strikes, pvp maps, adventures, raids, locations, ect are being removed.

I called Bungie out on their Reskin design stupidity (I mean cmon that felt like plain dumb marketing in the TWAB to say the least). If you want to discuss reprised guns like Gnawing Hunger - They were living up to a promise to make them easier to farm which they did. But what's the honest difference between Gnawing and Steel feather? Not much of one aside from kinetic and energy. Growing as in it's going to be painful in the beginning and settle out with time. The complaint over several locations disappearing clashes with other complaints about not getting anything new. This is Bungie we're talking about. You won't get the cake and eat it too. Their Engine just can't keep up. Let's sort through this. Titan / Io / Mercury / Mars are all going into the Vault. That's 4 planets. Of obsolete content. Replaced by Europa. Fine the trade off is awful to look at sure. I'll give you that. But let's be honest. How many of you actually do the mediocre obsolete content on those planets specifically. Patrols / Adventures / Public events. The most boring side to Destiny is being removed and I'm fine with it. A matter of perspective which if you disagree is fine. I won't spit on you for it. Having further thought on it they seem to focusing more on the end of the game. Which if you play on the Free to play side only is going to suck for a bit. I ain't happy about saying it but forsaken or shadowkeep might go free to play to keep the wheel spinning for them. Sunsetted gear becomes irrelevant in the endgame to be honest. That's where it's going to be felt the most. I mean how funny is it going to be when you tank a mountaintop shot and you're still at 75% HP. Growth takes time and sometimes it's painful or rough. I'm hopeful. But I'm not blind, I'm also expecting the balls to be dropped and duped and dropped again. Corridors of time taught me they can do good stuff but still screw up when it comes to feeling rewarded.

I'll admit, when you replied I was expecting a typical fanboy style response with some excuses for the sunset... what I got instead was a well composed response with some valid points. Thank you The biggest sunset is going to be the worse... season 12, when Bungie attempts to sunset 8 seasons worth of weapons and armor all at once. I hope they expect some pushback and alot of negative feedback for the first couple of weeks at least. I for one have been using a decent portion of new weapons and armor, and my biggest complaint got addressed when Bungie changed (my favorite armor) the Escalation Protocol armor set to be valid until 1360. My confidence is low but I was optimistic enough for a preorder... what happens between now and the end of my paid experience will be their moment for salvation... not only for me but everyone else that is disappointed in the current game.

[quote]what happens between now and the end of my paid experience will be their moment for salvation...[/quote] I could have written that when I lost all of my VoG/Crota elemental legendary guns in D1. Trust is hard to earn but easy to lose.

It'll be rough at first. Most pendulum swing changes usually are. They didn't exactly do themselves any favours with their TWAB marketing a ritual sniper with beloved as the base model and a scarf to keep it warm because of all the cold negative feedback. I made a pre order out of loving the game and giving Year 4 a fair shot. If Year 4 fails to impress then I'll do like Calus and skip out.

Same, make it or break it time Bungie...

Care to explain this logic? Cause judging from beyond light info things aren't getting better.

The Logic being 1) Beyond Land hasn't been in our hands yet. 2) Beyond Light isn't the entirety of Year 4 and I'm waiting a bit after BL to formulate a solid opinion.

So you have no logic other than wait and see. BL is already lacking content. Their shrinking of armour sets and pursuit weapons across the core activities actually makes things worse. You wanna play ignorant that is up to you, but the writing is on the wall.