You are cherry picking points here. You say that RNG is too random and too punishing and list trials and reckoning as examples. Now, don't think that I'm defending those systems, but they definitely don't encompass the game. You forgot to mention menagerie, a gamemode that lets you pick your rewards down to the masterwork. You can also get multiple rolls a run. You also had activities like vex offensive, which just showered you with loot to the point where you were bound to get the roll you wanted, because the pool was so low and the loot was so high. You had sundial which combined the two activities by showering you with guns and letting you choose which guns you want. There's also the lectern which lets you grind the guns AND armor you want as much as you want, you can stay on the same planet and grind to your hearts content. Don't forget the forges too, as you can again, choose your loot. Hell, even a raid has it to an extent with the Last Wish. You can choose which encounter you want and just do that 3 times until you get your roll. Now you have weapon frames in the bunkers, where you can max out your build with mods and then get the gun roll you want. RNG doesn't have as many layers as you think, like I mentioned above you are just cherry picking two activities, one that's 4 seasons old, and another that has little RNG but is hard to farm. I'm sorry you are having trouble on your spare rations grind, but don't complain to bungie that their ENTIRE GAME has bad RNG.

Menagerie hasn't been updated since release. It was a huge step in the right direction, but it's now old. It is the ONLY exception to my argument. It had loot that was both desirable and targetable. Vex Offensive and Sundial loot are all bad. Bad loot isn't a part of my RNG arguement, as I mentioned it in the first sentence of my post. Warmind has two good weapons: the shotgun and machinegun. So yeah. It's good for those, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a stupid loot system that encourages a monotonous tedious grind over actual gameplay. "Go do these daily bounties and then go grab a weapon bounty that you'll definitely do in Lost Sectors (three year old content)." That's not chasing down a boss for loot. That's not taking on the mechanics of an activity for loot. That's not playing key playlists for loot. That's literally just mindless grinding to pass time. And once you get them it's back to the same old stuff.

[quote]Menagerie hasn't been updated since release. [/quote] Ok, neither has reckoning. Unless you're talking about changes to how loot drops, then both menagerie and reckoning have had updates to how loot is obtained [quote]Vex Offensive and Sundial loot are all bad. Bad loot isn't a part of my RNG arguement, as I mentioned it in the first sentence of my post.[/quote] Doesn't matter. Sundial loot is definitely very good. The auto rifle has been getting a lot of use ever since the buff and it drops with very good pve perks. The sidearm is top tier in its category, and it's very relevant this season with champion mods. Subjunctive, the undying smg was also a solid pick, but was ultimately overshadowed by recluse, just like every energy primary. There was also the linear fusion rifle, which comes with firing line, superb for dps. Oh yeah, there's also a popular grenade launcher that is a totally brand new and exclusive archtype. So no, the loot isn't all bad. The majority is actually good. And excluding loot because it's "bad" isn't very consistent of an argument. People will still always use those guns. 100%. [quote]Warmind has two good weapons: the shotgun and machinegun. So yeah. It's good for those, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a stupid loot system that encourages a monotonous tedious grind over actual gameplay. "Go do these daily bounties and then go grab a weapon bounty that you'll definitely do in Lost Sectors (three year old content)."[/quote] Like I said above, stay consistent with your argument, you can't just exclude weapons because you think they're bad, everything is bad compared to certain weapons (that's a different argument though). Also, what does a tedious grind have to do with RNG, to me it sounds like a rewardable system, as boring and tedious as it is, it's still more efficient than a lot of other methods of grinding. [quote]That's not chasing down a boss for loot. That's not taking on the mechanics of an activity for loot. That's not playing key playlists for loot. That's literally just mindless grinding to pass time. And once you get them it's back to the same old stuff.[/quote] Again, what does that have to do with RNG. I'll get us back on topic. RNG in destiny is so friendly to the player, there aren't many examples I can think of that are very harmful to the experience of the game, but I'll help you out. Prime engrams, world loot pool is diluted with faction gear. GOS raid, too many energy weapons, drops for same slot Very little RNG protection when it comes to those pieces of content. I'd agree with you when you say that there isn't an efficient way to farm for reckoning. They could easily make a way. Do I want Bungie to start working on fixing reckoning. Hell no. Fix what ya got if front of you. To me, RNG is no where near the top of the list. It annoys me that I got 3 energy weapons last week in garden, but there are other sources. Destiny has come a long way when it comes to RNG, right now, we are in a better state than we ever were in the entire on the franchise.

I was very consistent with my arguement. My very first sentence is: "Most of the loot is EITHER bad or in a poor system so it can't be targeted and RNG is just brutal so your time is wasted." See that? I specifically made the distinction between good loot that wasn't targetable and the bad loot. That's my entire point. The good loot is stuck behind layers upon layers of RNG. And not a single on of the Sundial weapons really made it into the meta. Linear fusion is outclassed by many others. Grenade launcher is outclassed by Mountaintop. Auto is outclassed by any 600 RPM or Breakneck. Sidearm isn't bad, but Last Hope is far superior for PvP and there are many more better PvE options in that slot. So while people may use them, they're objectively bad in comparison. The Warmind loot follows the same trend, except for two weapons. Menagerie is the only exception to my rule, as I stated, and it's loot is hardly desirable now because most people have what it has to offer. The rest on Warmind is just a follow up to my oroginal reply about how other looters handle RNG and loot while Destiny does its BS.

Your argument itself isn't consistent with the game that destiny is. It's as simple as that. You can't just say "Oh, that gun sucks" because someone else will say, it's good, for example you think sundial is trash, I showed you why it's good. It can't be consistently argued because I think that all the menagerie weapons suck. Speaking of Sundial weapons....... Linear fusion is the best dps linear fusion rifle with the right perks. I can't get firing line on any other linear, even if I am wrong on that part, it still makes it a top tier LINEAR FUSION The grenade launcher is a totally different playstyle compared to mountain top. It does a lot of different things. That ones really hard to compare Apparently every green and blue 600 rpm auto is better than this auto. You can even look at other 600 rpm autos, I can't get feeding frenzy and multikillclip on many 600s, or any for that matter. Just because it's outclassed by one auto, one that was created to outclass every single auto, doesn't mean that the loot was trash. As for warmind, the weapons are good, they need to be paired with the mod on the armor, that's where they shine and the reason that they didn't drop with damage and reload perks at the same time. But noooooooo. The smg is outclassed by recluse so that means it's bad, and it's outclassed by every single smg in the game because I said so. \ Anyway, you didn't reply to my part on RNG :(

Great. Those guns have uses. Does that make them [i]objectively[/i] better than the other options present within their slot? No. That linear fusion will always be worse than Windego, the new world drop grand launcher with the right roll (forget the name), etc. Not at all. Most of them don't even offer a unique playstyle. Relative to other loadouts, they're objectively worse. It doesn't matter what you or I [i]think[/i] about the Menagerie weapons for example. They are [i]objectively[/i] worse. Look at Beloved for instance. It is hands down the best PvP energy sniper. Why? Low zoom scope, high range, high handling, high aim assist, and fantastic perks. It's low zoom scope gives a wide field of view and maximizes the width of the "aim assist cone" at shorter ranges, making it incredibly sticky. Paired with the mechanics of flinch, it shoots through flinch with ease. No other energy sniper checks ALL those boxes. That same comparison can be made between the SMG and Recluse or the grenade launcher and Mountaintop. Heck. In PvE, you'd also have to consider the splot the weapon is in. Why use that linear fusion when Windego is in the same slot, can fire at range, and doesn't need teammates since you can make your own orbs? And my entire arguement is that bad loot is pretty much everywhere, but then they put layers upon layers of RNG in front of the best. If that's it's identity of Destiny as you seem to claim, it's stupid and players generally don't like it. Reckoning had it's loot complaints. Trials has its own. Then there's the raids and world drops. Like why in God's name should it be more realistic to dump 7000 legendary shards to get an Old Fashioned rather than just tie it to a specific boss? Any boss. Lost Sector, strike, etc. And as a whole, sure. Destiny might be doing a little better with the RNG. But for every step forward, they step five steps back. So many times has Bungie gotten so much right, just to flop on the loot. Trials was really good at launch (annoying meta aside), until players realized that farming tokens at win 1 was the most efficient farm, so casual playerbase left. Grandmaster Nightfalls look like they're gonna be incredibly difficult and an indication of a real endgame, but then they have no exclusive loot. World loot pool got some awesome weapons and gear, but it's been diluted to the point there's no realistic way to get what you want. Garden weapons are pretty cool too, but there's no way to farm non-powerful loot, raid clan engrams are vanguard drops, loot is tied to specific encounters in Garden which makes the majority of the raid a waste if you only want one thing, and the majority of drops are energy weapons so you can easily get wasted pinnacle drops.