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Edited by DuBChiri2:
10/27/2019 7:05:25 PM
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I'm just going to comment on what you said about titans...but the best grenades?
I can understand suppression and pulse grenades are potent (I'm only excluding lightning grenade and thermites because the geometry of the maps can really screw them over) but to say they have the best is kind of...untrue, or at least not entirely true.
Warlocks have pulse grenade, arc bolt, fire bolt, axion bolt, storm grenade, and vortex grenade.
All of these grenades are potent for finishing off targets or to deal easy first hit damage to them.
People like to say they suck because they aren't as easy to kill with, but they also aren't as difficult to set up as a suppression grenade or lightning grenade would be when you need damage.
Nobody can deny that the bolt grenades have value but people will try.
I almost forgot about handheld...you said that warlocks have nothing on par to shoulder charge, but handheld is just shoulder charge on crack.
Not in pve, but in PvP it's insane.
First time using it, I killed 3 people at full health with it, instantly.
That gave me most of my grenade back and I didn't even have to leave my position to do that.
It is incredibly powerful and it works as a pocket fusion rifle that the incredible neutral game can work off of.
Hunters also have a fairly mixed set up for grenades as well.
Incindieary grenade (I know the titans have this too), skip grenade, swarm grenade, flux grenade (ass), tripmine, etc.
They have the most diversity among grenades and although most of them aren't the most damage dealing, their utility is there.
As for your comment on the shoulder charges...not sure why that matters when the better crucible set ups for 2 out of 3 of them don't have that melee.
Bottom tree striker, top tree or middle tree sentinel.
I would argue bottom tree sunbreaker is better, because it technically is, but it's also a lot more finicky and harder to use correctly.
The overall melees on titans being the best makes sense because most of their neutral game procs off of that alone.
No other class in the game has a perk that specifically states that they heal on just melee kills.
Warlocks on the other hand have more niche melee.
Middle tree void walker has one of the best melees for PvP in the game, dealing 160 damage (when it wants to) and knocking targets back.
Unlike bottom tree sunbreaker, you don't lose base melee damage in exchange for higher overall damage, so you really don't lose much if by chance it does the damage and not the boom.
The dawnblade melees suck, pretty much just a crappy burn or boom that doesn't do anything.
Voidwalkers overall utility for melee is pretty solid,top tree regenerates your grenades, bottom tree procs devour on kill, already went over middle tree.
Stormcaller has some niche crap too, chain lightning...whatever the hell bottom trees does, and arc ball...meh.
Warlocks aren't really a melee class so them not having great melees is understandable and whatever the rock paper scissors stuff you were talking about made no sense when warlocks dipped into both paper and rock in d1.
I'm not going to get into that because d1 is ancient history now.
Hunters i wouldn't say have great melees either.
The knives are fine, but not that great.
The void melees are definitely incredibly good for PvP, but they are terrible for pve.
Arc melee is meh, it's pretty much just a bootleg titan.
The titans overall have much more tools suitable for PvP this time around, but a lot of the things people like to tag titans for that makes them great is suppression and the shoulder charges, when quite honestly nobody uses those skill trees in higher end competitive play because they aren't always valuable.
I got to legend in comp this season using bottom tree sentinel and suppression grenade.
I barely ever caught anyone with the shoulder charge and I basically never suppressed supers because of how fast the best ones are.
The super also could get stomped easily at times, because of things like arc strider, nova bomb, blade barrage, bottom tree strikers and spectral blades.
I saw maybe 2 hammers when I got to mythic and was too afraid to use it myself because of all the snipers.
There's a lot of stuff in Destiny that could be tweaked but honestly, most of what the warlocks rock is more potent for pve, which doesn't turn out in the titans favor at all.
It's still pretty much nothing but melting point and some form of sentinel.
Thundercrash is still bad, burning maul is meh, top tree striker sucks.
Which is funny because sentinel is incredibly potent in pve but not so much in PvP.
Specific neutral games play a big part into these things.
Warlocks definitely got the short end of the stick for PvP this time, but pve is a COMPLETELY different story and nobody can deny that.
Nah, I'll also comment on your other stuff.
Leave fusions alone and just dial back the damage and range of high impacts.
Nobody uses the other archetypes still and to nerf them all because of a single one is stupid.
No the ttk does not need to be dialed back.
We would literally be dipping straight into the d2 year 1 ttk which was quite honestly too slow and would give special WAY too much power.
That would lead to special getting a nerf across the board which is a no go.
English
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Edited by Madness Tus: 10/27/2019 10:52:25 PMI understand and respect your opinion but saying that Warlocks is not a meleeing class I disagree, Warlock was a meleeing class and D1 was displaying just that, that's why they had claws of Ahamkara, Ophidian aspec, amplitude thunderstrike, void melee that gives health back and sunsinger melee ability that gives you overshield by melee hits, the titan was portrayed as a Juggernaut class AKA (Rhino) with shoulder charge and juggernaut shield which had harder-hitting melee than all the other classes and Hunters was just a bunch of monkeys jumping up and down abusing smoke bomb and dodge every 3 seconds. Bungie makes it seem like the Titan is a melee class in D2 cause players back in D1 complained about how they no longer want Warlocks to remain with the melee range so they had to strip the Warlock class and find it a new identity that's why Hanheld supernova and arcweb exist to give the Warlock an ability spamming identity which fits the description cause the class is kinda like spellcaster.
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Titans also had peregrine greaves, ac/d 0 feedback fence, thagomizers, mk. 44 standasides and quite a few others I don't quite remember. Striker had a super built for close range, juggernaut (gap closing), shoulder charge (melee), 3 melee abilities that had something to do with faster melee regen or turned it into radial damage. Defender had the overshield on melee kill which did increased damage, a perk where melee kills while your overshield was active generated orbs of light. Bubble technically only functions within melee range as outside of it it's not really a super. Sunbreaker had melting point, a perk that regenerated your melee for using it, turned it radial and suncharge. Warlocks did have a lot of perks to work around with melee, but so did pretty much every class. Titans may have lacked range, but if I remember correctly, they had the fastest melee speed. But I'd also like to point out that d1 pretty much never specified roles. Every class was able to do everything. Support, add clear, damage etc. But the lore and weaponry that titans favored did. They favored the "In your face style," where as the warlocks focused on more medium range artileray, while hunters focused on keeping away from combat and picking targets off from a distance.
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True... but the kinda melee I'm talking about is your standard smacking someone in the face which what I'm trying to say is that the warlock was all about that life. The Titans aspect of the melee was basically an OHK tank your hits style but it's true that their skills revolves around melee. And don't worry about the lore in D1 the lore was all made without actual thinking there wasn't even a proper campaign story until taken king and rise of iron.
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Edited by Funky Osiris: 10/27/2019 9:38:30 PMNot realy a melee class ? bruh did u play d1 wtf
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Edited by DuBChiri2: 10/27/2019 10:45:32 PMRange alone doesn't dictate that they are a melee class. Titans likely were designed to be that at first, but they didn't do very well with it. It pretty much took till year 3 for them to fix that. D1 titans had pretty much no place outside of melting point and bubble. Unfortunately it's pretty much the same crap. The way they've handled warlocks is much like with d1. They started to slow them down because they made them too versatile. It's a shame they have
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U see less and less warlocks in crucible thats for a reason if the warlock was a weapon it would be a autorifle u can kill with it but it aint top tier facts
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I know they aren't. But fixing the melee alone won't change that. Much like with top tree striker, a lot of the warlocks skill trees only work around pretty much d2 year 1 standards. They need to be updated and with at least stormcaller, they've done a pretty good job. Dawnblade is a great PvP super but the neutral game is garbage, especially on console. Void walker just doesn't feel right. Top trees nova bomb is devastating...but it's not blade barrage. Bottom tree has a terrific neutral game, but the super sucks. Nova warp has a good neutral game and solid super, but it definitely needs work. There's a lot to work with and hopefully they do.
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I hope the warlock gets it lil run in crucible we shall see
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It had its run with nova warp but that crash and burned.
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Bruh the hunters had a run for 1 year titans are getting close to that warlocks though 3 months kinda silly right
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Titans actually had a good chunk of year 1 d2 because of striker and sunbreaker. Their one shot power.
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They were weak compared to hunters thats why they got 1👁mask
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[quote]I'm just going to comment on what you said about titans...but the best grenades? I can understand suppression and pulse grenades are potent (I'm only excluding lightning grenade and thermites because the geometry of the maps can really screw them over) but to say they have the best is kind of...untrue, or at least not entirely true. Warlocks have pulse grenade, arc bolt, fire bolt, axion bolt, storm grenade, and vortex grenade. All of these grenades are potent for finishing off targets or to deal easy first hit damage to them.[/quote] Titans also have incendiary which is capable of being an OHK which none of those you mentioned can do. [quote]People like to say they suck because they aren't as easy to kill with, but they also aren't as difficult to set up as a suppression grenade or lightning grenade would be when you need damage.[/quote] Warlocks have nothing that remotely compares to Lightning or Spike Grenades which in the right hands are the two best in the game imo. [quote]Nobody can deny that the bolt grenades have value but people will try. I almost forgot about handheld...you said that warlocks have nothing on par to shoulder charge, but handheld is just shoulder charge on crack.[/quote] Shoulder Charge is available at all times and there's really no comparison here. The amount of times I've died (and I guarantee yourself as well) to Handheld is so miniscule as to not even be able to be ranked. I would guess I've died to it less than 20 times ever. [quote]Hunters also have a fairly mixed set up for grenades as well. Incindieary grenade (I know the titans have this too), skip grenade, swarm grenade, flux grenade (ass), tripmine, etc. They have the most diversity among grenades and although most of them aren't the most damage dealing, their utility is there.[/quote] Even at a mixed bag, they're no worse than warlocks and their other abilities still are more useful in PvP. [quote]As for your comment on the shoulder charges...not sure why that matters when the better crucible set ups for 2 out of 3 of them don't have that melee. Bottom tree striker, top tree or middle tree sentinel. I would argue bottom tree sunbreaker is better, because it technically is, but it's also a lot more finicky and harder to use correctly.[/quote] It's still an OHK ability that every Titan class can run if they choose and again warlocks have no offensive ability that compares. The closest is Handheld. That's only on void locks. [quote]Warlocks aren't really a melee class so them not having great melees is understandable and whatever the rock paper scissors stuff you were talking about made no sense when warlocks dipped into both paper and rock in d1. I'm not going to get into that because d1 is ancient history now.[/quote] Not sure your point on "paper and rock" and Warlocks are completely intended to be melee based classes. That's why the fact that they are so underwhelming there still is so bad. [quote]Hunters i wouldn't say have great melees either. The knives are fine, but not that great. The void melees are definitely incredibly good for PvP, but they are terrible for pve. Arc melee is meh, it's pretty much just a bootleg titan.[/quote] Hunters can get off two normal (not ability) melee attacks much faster than warlocks. [quote]Nah, I'll also comment on your other stuff. Leave fusions alone and just dial back the damage and range of high impacts. Nobody uses the other archetypes still and to nerf them all because of a single one is stupid.[/quote] So nerf the only one that anyone uses and isn't complete garbage? [quote]No the ttk does not need to be dialed back. We would literally be dipping straight into the d2 year 1 ttk which was quite honestly too slow and would give special WAY too much power. That would lead to special getting a nerf across the board which is a no go.[/quote] I don't think you read what I wrote. I didn't say dial back the average TTK overall. I said the fastest killing primaries should be dialed back. I stand by that. Nothing should two tap or kill in under .65 seconds unaided.
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Incindieary grenades can't one shot, they do 120 damage plus 5-6 ticks of 7 burn damage MAX. Maybe it will if you use heart of inmost light, but nobody uses that. Titans don't have spike grenades anymore and nobody uses them anyways. Making comparison between skill trees nobody uses and the entirety of the warlock class is honestly unfair as well. I compared it to nova warps handheld because that is the only thing that is similar and much like with titans, is likely the least used other than in quickplay. But the best titan skill trees don't use that and the amount of times YOU die to it is irrelevant because in higher tier play it's practically unusable, which means it's not a competitive edge. But it's really good at killing people who play the game at lower levels. And yes, only nerf the fusion rifles everyone uses. You wanting to nerf them ALL because of a single archetype is honestly ridiculous and not sure how it's more logical to make them all worse when you can make a single one less optimal. It will always be the best fusion no matter what, but it shouldn't be a landslide like it is now. Also, them giving a disjoint melee that also had more range and effects than average melees was stupid. Titans in d1 had damage, but that wasn't until they gave them buffs much later in the game. Titans started off as the worst pve and PvP class in the game, but with bubble and spamming shoulder charge with lightning grenades, it kept them afloat. So many things on the titan were bad for so long and even now the warlocks cover pretty much everything titans can do in pve but better. In PvP, the titans more lethal abilities don't make them better either. The extra neutral game that pairs with them helps, but on all 3 of the shoulder charge skill trees besides striker, have some of the worst PvP neutral games because of how much more difficult it is to land ability kills with the grenades. I'll deal high damage with them, but titans have terrible grenades for finishing targets off. They are great for starting engagements, but not much else and that's what titans excel at. Getting in and dishing out damage. The only real skill tree that's good at cleaning up is bottom tree striker and that's due to knock out pretty much exclusively. And yes, lightning grenade is one of the best grenades in the game, but it's also one of the worst because of how difficult the geometry of the maps are. I have played as my titan and fought plenty of them as well. Nobody uses lightning grenades because pulses are just so much more valuable. In the right scenario, they are ridiculous, but nothing not worth those once and a while kills. And don't even pretend like arc web isn't potent. It can be insane and incredibly beneficial for doing basically nothing but throwing a grenade. When you said dial back the fastest killing primaries, that only takes into account side arms and smgs, which have HUGE disadvantages to using them unless you are within shotgun range. To nerf their ttk would be worse than straight up removing them, because then their ttk falls straight into normal primary ttk. The only things that kill faster than .67 seconds are weapons with damage buffs or other unusual damage mechanics. Side arms maybe, but they are also worse than smgs because they are terrible with consistency. Dialing those back would cripple them. Your observations of titans is wrong though and your reasoning for the other things you stated really don't make sense. Like I said, I think warlocks aren't as good as titans or hunters for PvP, but in pve it's a different story. Stormcaller, nova bomb, well of radiance, chaos reach, etc I could compare and breakdown between both the hunters and titans and honestly besides the damage celestial nighthawk or burning maul deal, warlocks pretty much do everything else better.
