The issue is simple.
...it gets back to the same issues I was talking about in your other, bomb-throwing thread.
1. Cores add no value to the game for the player.
2. They exist in the game ONLY to bottleneck infusion...and to deny the player access to powers (gear perks) that they've already acquired....and slow-and-artificially extend progression rather than reward player time investment.
3. Bungie states that they are undersupplying the game with them.
4. THEY DON'T DROP FROM NORMAL GAME PLAY, WHICH ALLOWS BUNGIE TO SUPPLY THEM TO THE GAME IN A WAY THAT IS NOT RESPONSIVE TO PLAYER TIME INVESTMENT.
IOW, this allows Bungie to effectively CAP how many we can get....just like Milestones impose a soft-cap on the number of drops we can get each week to progress our character.
NOW listen closely....because here's the problem.
1. In combination with Milestones, Cores basically slap a restrictor plate on the game' progression engine. So you can only progress but so fast REGARDLESS of how much you play.
2. Cores amplify the problem by squelching the game's horizontal progression. So you create a second....artififical grind that doesn't reward the player with anything. Unless you massively stockpile cores....you have to reach level cap by playing with whatever drops..
Then there is a second, grind that forces you to eithe grind cores or grind MILESTONES (!!) to get duplicates of the gear you already have...so you can then raise them to cap. WHICH WOULD BE FINE IF THE LEVEL CAP WAS A STATIONARY TARGET.
3. But then Bungie raises the level cap every three months. So the majority of the player base has no TIME to complete this process before the level cap is raised....they get kicked down to the mid-game once again....and this toxic process starts all over again.
If what TattooedOni said about you on the other thread is true....you are basically playing this game 40 hours a week. (Its the only way you get 3000 hours of play in 18 months). So you are either playing this game AS a job (streamer or content creator) OR you are playing it LIKE a full time job.
Either way....the pain on this system doesn't TOUCH you. Because the three hours or so it takes you to grind cores gets swallowed up by a level of play time that makes you an EXTREME statistical outlier. IOW, you don't care about wasting 3 hours a week....because you have 37 other hours to do what you want.
But that three hours a week may represent HALF the WEEKS game play for some pretty dedicated players. So half their play time gets WASTED doing the most tedious activities in the game...for essentially NO tangible reward.
I'm another outlier. I'm top 4% our about 20 hours a week.
This system is a problem for me, because I'm a veteran RPG player....and my end game is to construct and perfect multiple BUILDS. And cores DESTROY that play style.
Before Foresaken I ran FOUR fulltime builds on each of three characters....and did it with ease. Not only did it with ease, I also could level up situational weapons and keep them in my valut to pull out and use when the game got stale. I WOULD NEED TO OBTAIN NEARLY 200 CORES PER WEEK TO MAINTAIN THAT PLAY STYLE. That level of core generation is a statisical IMPOSSIBILITY right now.
Even at my level of outsized play, it took every hour of play and every cores that I could get my hands on just to maintain TWO builds. NO masterworking. No leveling up situational gear in my vault. IN SHORT, CORES HAVE TAKEN WHAT WAS ALWAYS A SHALLOW...BUT ENJOYABLE...GAME....AND MADE IT RIGID, EVEN MORE SHALLOW...AND AN UNENJOYABLE HAMSTER WHEEL OF EFFORT FOR THE SAKE OF EFFORT.
...making people have to go through a second manufactured grind to keep and use the stuff they've already earned is not a "grind". Its wasting people's time for no reward.
But that's not the worst of it.
I tried to level up a new character on PC back in the fall. Breezed thorugh the campaign with no problem. Then I hit this levelling system.
I went from 0-500 over a holiday weekend. Despite the changes Bungie made for Black Armory...it took me THREE WEEKS to go from 500 to 550. Then I got stuck at 550 for another three weeks because I got nothing but kinetic weapons and boots as drops. THAT'S WHEN I QUIT THAT CHARACTER IN FRUSTRATION AND WENT BACK TO MY PSN CHARACTERS.
THAT...IS WHAT BUNGIE HAS TURNED THIS GAME INTO FOR NEW AND RETURNING PLAYERS.
Because the time I could dedicate to that fourth character is more indicative of what the AVERAGE player can afford to give to this game. .
...and its why this game's engagement numbers are slowly having their air let out as people who don't have 40 hours a week to throw at it...are quitting it in frustration.
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It takes no more than 15 minutes to get 15-25 cores spending 1200 shards on sim seeds
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That's called an "exploit". ...and I dont care to waste my time doing that, in order to accomodate Bungie's poor game design decisions. NO other game asks you to do that in order to simply progress, and hold onto powers already acquired. Oh...[b]and nobody bothers to use exploits of a system that is well-designed and working.[/b] The fact that you are SUGGESTING to do this evidence that the system is broken and not working well. Because you can't get what you need by simply playing the game as intended. [i][/i]
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We dont have to agree on what it's called but its there to use so why not stop complaining and use it? They arent removing them .. I wish they'd increase the amount you guys would get from bounties so i dont need to see these kinds of posts flooding the forums .. They should definitely drop it back down to 10 cores to masterwork weapons and gear
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[quote]We dont have to agree on what it's called but its there to use so why not stop complaining and use it? [/quote] 1. It doesn't fix the problem. 2. It wastes MY most precious resource----my TIME----doing something that I can't stand....for somethiing that (if Bungie knew what they were doing) I would be getting through simply playing the game (like Glimmer and planetary mats). 3. They need to REMOVE them. Beause anything short of making them freely farmable (like Glimmer and mats) won't fix the infusion problem....and doing that will TRIVIALIZE masterworking by making it too easy and too common. Adding cores to infusion was just a HORRIBLE decision, and Bungie's pride and stubbornness just won't allow them to back down.
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Well thats why I suggested the brother vance thing .. What's 15 minutes of your time dismantling some things
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Your suggestion makes sense. The time aspect isn’t the limiting factor in that scenario (even if your time investment was correct - last time I played the “game” between spider and Vance it took about 40 minutes to go through about 250 shards between the earning some back from Vance, back to the shore, back to Vance, etc.) I play about 2-3 hours a day, 5 days a week. I have never had more than 400 shards at any one time. Admittedly, my vault is fuller than it needs to be as I haven’t done a purge in awhile so I could likely add another 600 shards to the pot if I shard everything non-essential/non-duplicative in my vault. But that current vault is an assembly of the last 2 months (ish). So what you’re suggesting is that I could likely get a 1 time infusion of ~20 (based on your math) cores every 2 months. It’s a smart thing to do and does up my supply. But that’s hardly what I’d call a reliable or steady solution for the vast majority of the player base. It’s a needed workaround. But for an average player, you can regularly earn enough to MW a single piece of gear or infuse a full set of gear roughly every 2-3 weeks. And I’m not one of those people that infuses like crazy. If I wore my max light gear, I would sit at about 685. But I’m currently running around in gear at 650 because it fits the builds I want for given activities. I don’t needlessly (or sometimes needfully) infuse. And when I do, it’s usually using dupe equipment - eliminating the need for cores. But unique gear (raid, IB, limited time engagement, pinnacle weapons, rarer drops)... not much choice there. I’m a guy that drops ~20 hours a week, doesn’t spend cores but every 2-3 weeks, knows where cores come from, but still has to rely on under leveled gear because of the a broken level system that doesn’t reward time invested, productive activities performed, or even skill. Rather relies on a dedication to specific monotonous mundane grind and “exploits” (I put that in quotes because I don’t really consider it an exploit - I think the spider/vendor exchange was set up for this EXACT purpose).
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The highest gear drops will always be the dreaming city last wish and the scourge .. Since its the season of the drifter his bounties will drop higher as well on top of the weekly reckoning and the weekly/daily gambit and gambit prime.. I get about a 90% return on my shards because Vance gives a ton of shaders that break down into shards.. This is the breakdown of the last time I went to spider than to Vance 1126 shards spent turned into 5641 simulation seeds Started off with 70 cores and 6 mod components .. Ended with 94 enhancement cores and 19 mod components After breaking down everything including the shaders I have 925 shards.. So I only spent 201 shards for a total of 24 cores and 13 mod components.. This is going back about a month ago .. Right now I have 185 cores 5 matterweaves 34 mod components and 2236 shards
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Dude after masterworking 5 pieces of gear were out of glimmer
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You obviously never played games where you can do exactly as I suggested
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Its actually not an exploit because it was coded into the game to drop masterworked weapons
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Its an exploit. An exploit is anything that is in the game, that can be used in a way that the developers never intended....to produce a result that they clearly never wanted. Its an economic exploit. Its just one that proving useful to Bungie's agenda, which is why they haven't patched it out fo the game like they did with the pinnacle weapon exploit.
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I agree with all your previous points except this one. I think the entire “spider selling mats for shards” mechanic was built exclusively for this purpose. It’s being used exactly as intended IMO. When was the last time Bungie let a known “exploit” linger for a year without even hinting at a patch? Heck, I think they’ve even referenced this method in the past.
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Edited by TheArtist: 4/23/2019 5:03:42 PM[quote]When was the last time Bungie let a known “exploit” linger for a year without even hinting at a patch? Heck, I think they’ve even referenced this method in the pas[/quote] Heavy ammo glitch. Titan skating. They do it when they aren't sure that they can fix it.....or if they don't mind it being in the game. Right now, Bungie's intent is to get us to accept cores-for-infusion as the new normal....and this exploit works to their benefit toward that end. Which is why they are leaving it in the game.
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Which heavy glitch are you referring to? There’s been a number. And all got patched. Titan skating may still be a thing, but Bungie has acknowledged it, say they’re working on it, and have explained in detail why it happened. In all of these scenarios there has been a relatively quick response (not a quick “fix” mind you, but a public acknowledgement). All of those cases were things that weren’t working as intended. Bungie has mentioned the spider/vendor mechanic many times and always as a regular course of business. They aren’t saying anything’s broken because nothing’s broken. (Check that - lots in the game is broken, this just isn’t one of those things).
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The Destiny 1 glitch. It took Bungie almost 18 months to patch that glitch beause it was buried so deep in the code. The fact that even these long-standing, deep-seated bugs eventually got patched out of the game, is why I believe that Bungie's unwillingness to even acknowledge the Brother Vance exploit which functions EXACTLY the same as the pinnacle weapon farm that they shut down so rapidly....means that they are leaving in the game intentionally Because they've always patched these kinds of economic exploits out of the game very quickly. Yet this obvious one has been left around for nearly 6 months.
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The heavy glitch from D1 took a good long while to patch, but devs acknowledged it was an issue that needed to be fixed as soon as it was brought to light. That’s the pattern - if Bungie devs acknowledge something is an issue, it will get patched. Likewise, if anything “breaks” their intended economy, they shut it down immediately. They do not and never have slow played any exploit that allowed players to get currency in an unintended fashion. They don’t want anybody to get a single piece of currency in a way they didn’t plan. They care too much about their imaginary economy to let that stand. That’s how you know this was intended. If it wasn’t, it would have been treated exactly as the pinnacle exploit was.
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[quote] They do not and never have slow played any exploit that allowed players to get currency in an unintended fashion.[/quote] Because only one other time have they tried to intentionally starve the game of a needed currency in an effort to slow progression...and they've also never dragged out an effort to do so for 7 months. That was during the Weapon Parts Drought of 2015. Fortunately, Bungie came to their senses and fixed it about a month later. We are not dealing with the same Investment Team here....I'd be willing to argue that we aren't even dealing with the same Live Team any more.
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Edited by Lots of Dogs: 4/27/2019 10:41:50 PMOn the team changes, we agree.
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What do you mean? They put that in there as intended when CoO came out it was just extremely rare to have a masterworked weapon drop
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...and I don't think Bungie expected people try to farm that vendor for cores.
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Edited by TheArtist: 4/23/2019 3:50:41 PMDo you really think they INTENDED to give you way to manufacture cores WITHOUT having to play the game? Seriously? That they intended Brother Vance to be a giant slot machine that spits out cores if you feed it enough Simulation Seeds? The same people who made the cost of BUYING cores increase exponentially if you try to buy them outright from Spider? Bungie clearly never intended this. They've simply LEFT it in the game because it reduces the Pain that this unpopular system is inflicting....and increases the likelihood that we'll eventually quiet down and accept what they are doing. Wchih is why they patched out the pinnacle weapon exploit within hours.....yet they turn a blind eye to this one.
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But to make the “exploit” work, you do have to play the game. Spider/Vance only works if you have shards. I ply 20 hours a week and have never had more than 400 shards in inventory. To make the spider/Vance exchange moderately rewarding, you have to grind in game a ton to dust enough legendaries to earn anything impactful.
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Well think about it ... When CoO was out weren't you doing things on mercury in the hopes of getting a masterworked weapon? So ... Now spider sells stuff through his black market ... 5 seeds per shard.. I don't get a masterwork every package turn in .. Not only that I dont have to spend my 2200 shards in the hopes that I might get 10 cores from spider since it doubles after every purchase.. They should leave it at 10 shards a core and have a daily limit so 10 cores a day per character that's 30 a day
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A convoluted work around of the system proves it's busted to begin with.
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For people who struggle they need to up the amount that drops from bounties one core from them is a bit ridiculous and makes it not even worth it to do them