I'm reading a lot of the replies here and it seems more apparent that I play shooters much different than most people. I don't want the same thing from this game as others. I do t want the same kind of gameplay as others. I'm not a Halo person either, I'm from Battlefield. I dont know how that compares to Halo but I want a team oriented game where 1v2+ is a novelty experience not the norm. I feel that what we have now is closer to my preference and what people want is further. I feel that when September comes around I'm going to hate this game.

Battlefield is trying to recreate the experience of the typical soldier in modern combat. Destiny is trying to let people experience what it feels to be one part warrior-angel and one part superhero. That’s why Bungie keeps alienating the player base the more they try to make the game play like a [i]standard[/i] shooter. It stopped being one the moment they added [i]space magic.[/i]

Don't patronize Kelly. I know what the differences are. It's what drew me to a console shooter from PC. Along with the most superior console gun play and mechanics I'd seen at the time. The biggest challenge for me was and still is...vertical game. I'm terrible at it and have trouble defending against it. I might be rooting for BF V for me. (Not saying Destiny Kieran). Just don't know whether to go back to PC or stay on console.

Not patronizing. I’m reminding and emphasizing. Because this is [i]precisely[/i] the mistake Bungie keeps making. Ninety-five percent of this game’s problems come from Bungie making design decisions that are incompatible with the game’s core identity and the experience it is trying to create. So I’m emphasizing that trying to create the Battlefield experience you want on a gut level in pvp, breaks the game’s core power fantasy. I know you understand that. But Bungie acts like they don’t seem to.

[quote]So I’m emphasizing that trying to create the Battlefield experience you want on a gut level in pvp, breaks the game’s core power fantasy.[/quote] I don't want the 'core' of this game to be Battlefield. However I do know that PVP play in-and-of-itself demands a level of balance that Destiny has never really been able to have. Whether it's neutral balance or Rock Paper Scissors they are pretty clueless. I was/am a proponent of separation of PVE and PVP balance. Even of weapons or at least weapon perks different for both modes. We all know though that Bungie doesn't want to do that. So we're left with having this split between power fantasy in PVP and balance in PVP because these things are incompatible to try and 'mix' them.

Like I said, I know that YOU understand how we got here, and what I was saying was for Bungie's benefit. [quote]So we're left with having this split between power fantasy in PVP and balance in PVP because these things are incompatible to try and 'mix' them.[/quote] Which is the painful combination of Arrogance and Ignorance on Bungie's part that got us here...that has defined the last 3 years of this franchise...and gave us the trainwreck that was Vanilla Destiny 2. The Arrogance that Bungie believes that they can succeed where others have failed. The Ignorance in that they fail to understand that the reason why everyone else has failed before them IS THAT IT SIMPLY CANNOT BE DONE. Because there is no "middle-ground" that shooter gamers and RPG gamers will accept...and Bungie should have realized that after Year 1 of Destiny 1. But instead they just keep HAMMERING away at that square peg, trying to get it into that round hole. [i][b]If I only hit it HARD enough and at JUST the right angle.......[/b][/i]

And this is why I'm afraid of what PVP will become after Forsaken. They think that their changes are subtle but they wind up shooting way past their intentions. This is partly because of what you are saying and partly because they have terrible QA. They simply just don't play the way their playerbase does. So they never test things in a realistic way and almost never look at the secondary and tertiary consequences.

I understand your post completely and agree with most of it. Unfortunately a lot of what you're describing has little to do with TTK and nothing to do with Teamshooting. You admitted mostly that your IB scenario wasn't really teamshooting aside from the initial 1v2(out of 4). The rest of the encounter was thumbskill and correct use of environment and abilities. [quote] I killed both of them because of the faster TTK[/quote] No, You killed the first one (maybe) because of TTK and the second because of either you're movement (evasion), something in the map (terrain), or a skill gap. You simply don't survive a 1v2 on TTK alone. The 3rd and fourth kills were ability and power weapon based combined with movement. Again not TTK I agree that these things are [u]less[/u] possible in D2 because of ability nerfs in general. That doesn't mean they don't happen (I'm sure you understand that) they are just harder, can take longer, which give people more time to run away. I can understand how this frustrates people. [quote]I would have outdueled the frist guy...[/quote] I don't for a second believe that lower TTK changes this because that lowered TTK affects the second guy too. So again unless there is a large skill gap in your favor your dead just as quick or quicker. [quote]Because of the nerfing to grenades, and removal of special ammo from the game...[/quote] This I can agree with in terms of not only survivability but simply usability.

The problem isn't team shooting....and the solution isn't just a reduction of TTK. I"VE NEVER argued that. People focus on team shooting because it is emblematic of the extremely narrow play options that this game offers...and the extremely repetitive basic game play loop. Which was talked about to REALLY good comedic effect by Mtashed. He basically made the same point I did in my last post (but he was a lot funnier) about the variety of game play options available to you in Destiny 1. But in Destiny 2, the game play loop (if you try to play as a single player) is: Fire your primary.....HIDE.....HEAL......RE-ENGAGE. Over...and over....and over again. ..and the only way to break out of the monotonous loop is the one or two times a match you had your super and the one or two times (if you were lucky pre-sandbox update when he made the video) a match you got power ammo. So your only options to play this game is either THAT.....or mob up and team shoot. And NEITHER of those options are particularly fun compared to what was possible in Destiny 1...and other fast-moving augmented-mobility shooters like Titanfall and Titanfall 2. TLDR: The "topic" is teamshooting. The ISSUE is extremely narrow, stilted, and predictable play with almost NO play style options because Bungie was hellbent on micromanaging play to the Nth degree..... ...that they basically destroyed every other way to play the game other than the way they wanted to "promote" (Overwatch-style team shooting.)

[quote]Fire your primary.....HIDE.....HEAL......RE-ENGAGE.[/quote] But...This is how you play shooters. Every shooter game plays this way. D1's abilities just made it faster because they were more available and you healed faster. That's the only difference. Bring that back for sure but TTK doesn't really need to be touched.

[quote]But...This is how you play shooters[/quote] No you don't. [quote]Every shooter game plays this way[/quote] No they don't. Titanfall is an extreme example but encounters are over so fast in that game that you really don't have anything that can truly be called "gunfights". Titanfall is really a game of movement and positioning such that you can be the player that gets the drop on your opponent...and wins the encounter. Now that comes with its own problems (latency)...and Destiny doesn't need to be anywhere near that fast in terms of TTK, because Guardians don't move anywhere near as fast and unpredictably as Pilots do. [quote]D1's abilities just made it faster because they were more available and you healed faster. That's the only difference.[/quote] No. Destiny 1 was a fast game....because it was a fast game. Guardians in Destiny 1 had the ability to move very fast and very unpredictably. WHICH DEMANDS A FAST TTK IF YOU WANT PRIMARY (MULTI-SHOT) WEAPONS TO BE THE META....and gunfights to be decisive. And when the TTK was around 0.6 in vanilla Destiny 1....YOU GOT EXACTLY THAT. A fast, flowing game where everything was in balance. Fights were decided by primary weapons....and special weapons were situational weapons. But you wound up with a game that played FASTER than "Halo Grads" wanted....so they complained...and Bungie listened (because a faction within Bungie wanted to recreate Halo was well.) So Weisznewski started nerfing the game's primaries. The Rubicon was crossed in Feb 2015, with the great AR nerf. That's when primaries were no longer powerful enough to keep up with the speed of play...and when LEGENDARY special weapons became a problem. That was when someone could rush you with a shotgun, and you could no longer stand your ground and fight them off. Primary weapon users had to learn how to backpedal while firing...and spent the next two years backpedalling. But that wasn't good enough. Bungie kept on nerfing primaries in an effort to micromanage play. By the start of year 3, TTK was now north of 0.85 seconds for all but the very fastest killing weapons in the game..... ...and EVERY special weapon in the game was no a problem because a primary weapon was now no longer a credible threat to anyone but the person trying to use it. Snipers were reined in by the use of flinch....but shotguns and fusion rifles became intractable problems. Bungie just out and out BROKE fusion rifles....but they were unwilling to nerf shotguns to the point of breaking them to protect the underpowered primaries. So they just STARVED ALL SPECIAL WEAPONS OF AMMO. Which is when the Crucible really went to shit. Because you still had the fundamental problem. THE LACK OF A WEAPON THAT COULD KEEP UP WITH THE SPEED OF PLAY. So people first tried to go to weapons that bypassed the special ammo nerf....then Bungie shutdown that loophole. Which is when you go the ability spam...and the fusion grenade rush. But instead of taking EVEN THIS as a hint that primaries were underpowered...FOR DESTINY 2 THEY DOUBLED DOWN ON THE NERFS AND JUST NERFED OUR GUARDIANS FROM STEM TO STERN..AND THEN NERFED PRIMARY WEAPONS AGAIN. (Halo or Bust). Well we got bust. Because it nerfs, the dual primary system (so you can just remove special weapons from the game entirely) just sucked all the fun out of the game, and helped break PVE. BUT IT DIDN'T SOLVE THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM. BECAUSE NOW, PEOPLE JUST SOLVED THE UNDERPOWERED PRIMARY PROBLEM BY TURNING MULTIPLE WEAPONS on the target. Which is why we now have this intractable team shot meta....and why it isn't GOING ANYWHERE until Bungie finally stops trying to pound a square peg into a round hole AND FINALLY GIVES US SOME -blam!-ING PRIMARY WEAPONS AGAIN THAT CAN KEEP UP WITH THE SPEED OF PLAY!!!!

Thank fn god SOMEBODY finally agreed with my assessment on this issue.

[quote]Thank fn god SOMEBODY finally agreed with my assessment on this issue.[/quote] I wa beginning to think I was ge only one that thought this way as well.

I kind of misiterpreted the "Fire your primary.....HIDE.....HEAL......RE-ENGAGE." thing I took the "Fire your primary" As meaning a kill....because after a kill, especially if you are hurt, you disengage and heal. You don't spring headling into another fight. At least I don't. That's why I get into it with 'aggressive' players. Personally that is not my experience in this game. I generally don't disengage unless there's a kill (either way). But if I do win I disengage and heal.[quote] And when the TTK was around 0.6 in vanilla Destiny 1....YOU GOT EXACTLY THAT. A fast, flowing game where everything was in balance. Fights were decided by primary weapons....and special weapons were situational weapons. [/quote] Sure. But I personally hated that 'speed' of play. I didn't like how there was little time to react to an engagment. However what I did like was that if I was good enough I could take out a shotgun rusher before they got to me. In those situations the lower TTK meant something. Something you point out very well wasn't easily done (or at all) in Y2. If matching primary power with the speed of play = lowering TTK I can understand that and get behind it. I still believe it will not help teamshooting and by itself will not help 1v2+. I keep saying it but I simply don't want this to become a twitch shooter. A lower TTK combined with the return of Shotguns and Snipers scares me that it will become that.

[quote]I still believe it will not help teamshooting and by itself will not help 1v2+.[/quote] If Bungie does as I suggest, it will. It will because it will allow for countering team fire...and create a skill gap in 1v2 encounters. Because you create space for a skilled player to put one opponent down before BOTH opponents put fire on him. Or to keep a 1v1 a 1v1. Beause the skilled player can put that first player down, before a second joins the fight. [quote]I keep saying it but I simply don't want this to become a twitch shooter. A lower TTK combined with the return of Shotguns and Snipers scares me that it will become that.[/quote] This game has never been twitch shooter....and that return is exactly what's needed unless you want to run around and play Napoleonic Wars for the next several years. I, personally, don't.

Never could get the whole “twitch shooter” argument. The only weapon that got real close to that level was 111 glitch TLW, and that didn’t quite make it either.