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7/12/2018 2:51:01 PM
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I don't think kill times have anything to do with team shooting. Any game I ever played with a team we stuck together. This includes D1 and CoD. We always came out on top if one person tried to flank.
Yes a faster kill did allow the solo a chance at one or two kills in CoD but CoD ttk is extremely fast.
In D1 the best way to win was to stick together, that's why Trials became so boring.
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Trials became boring because the weapon balance SUCKS. When you have all teams firing all MIDA's on both sides, or don't bother, when it was launched, that is the problem. When you have 7 viable weapons only at any one time out of a list of hundreds of weapons, it absolutely doesn't even matter if you have a weapon meta swap, it's trash for interest When you run into one team 3 times in a row because the population and matchmaking is that bad, and then you run into a second team 3 times in a row after that, only to see the first team in a row again after that, there's no saving it. When you somehow, in your out of your mind way, set everyone in your player base to expect to go flawless, THEN Bungie has literally no idea what they are even producing at that point as far as a game goes. That's literally an on paper awful idea that no one should have even written one letter of coding for. So...I don't really think it's that teams stuck together. That would come long after, I would say. Sure, there's not a lot of flanking or any of that, but again....there's a mountain of problems with Trials which they have not even started to address. How many times are they going to load Eternity's Edge? There's nothing interesting to look forward to.
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I really don't think weapon balance matters. Trials got boring in D1 because most teams huddled together a lane camped. The trend continued in D2. The removal of radar made it a bit more playable but only when the population is healthy. I agree with a lot of the other things you said.
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[quote]In D1 the best way to win was to stick together, that's why Trials became so boring.[/quote] Yes, but there was counterplay possible, and some element of unpredictability in a 1v2. In Destiny 2 there isn't any. Whoever "Gets there First With the Most Guns" wins.
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In any game the most guns win. Faster TTK just means you get someone by surprise maybe the second, but the team wins.
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[quote]In any game the most guns win.[/quote] Nope. The nature of combat in Destiny 1 was such that you could change the nature of the encounter by whatever weapon or ability you used. Which is why you always had to be careful chasing after someone who was weak after a primary gunfight. You could round a corner thinking you were just coming to clean them up..... ...only to get a shotgun, a fusion rifle or a sticky grenade to the face as the reward for your reckless ness. That kind of MENTAL dueling has been amputated from the game. The person chasing after you has nothing to fear from you...other than the possibility of getting baited into being team shot (surprise) or someone else with power ammo. ...and if they do have power ammo, there is no counter play there either unless the other guy has his super. The game play is so stale and so unidimensional in D2, that if you give me the STARTING CONDITIONS of any encounter...I can probably predict its outcome with 80% accuracy. Which is why the game gets so stale and so frustrating so quickly. The player feels like he or she is on railroad tracks and outcomes are decided by circumstances and no individual skill.
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Chasing? You shouldn't ever chase on any game unless they are the sole player left. You had the same risk of chasing in this game as any other but just comparing D1 to D2, heavy, super or teams could be waiting. I'm not sure which version of D1 we ate comparing either, D1 pvp was terrible by the end, stickies and sidearms. I really do not feel that speeding up kill time will make much difference, teams are more used to hold hands now so the team shooting would just be a instant death in Quickplay. You may get the drop on a team in Competitive because there isn't a radar.
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Disagree. Chasing was a tactical decision that offered situational benefits at a risk in D1. So you had to make a decision whether the benefits were worth the risk. D2 makes that decision for you. Unless you have power ammo or an active super, don’t chase. Once again making play marrow, stale, and predictable.
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What era of D1 are you comparing? If I disengage from a fight in any game I'm going to head for a teammate because I probably need help. The issue I have with kill times, yes I want faster kill time, is the fact that people have time to disengage when they really shouldn't. The new weapon system in September may fix a lot of issues for both of us but I still don't think it's gonna fix the team shooting issue.
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[quote]What era of D1 are you comparing? [/quote] Pre-special ammo nerf (February, 2017). [quote]If I disengage from a fight in any game I'm going to head for a teammate because I probably need help.[/quote] That's an aspect of your personal play style..and is more prevalent in very competitive, team-oriented play. You really didnt' see that very much in Destiny 1 outside of Trials, because you were more effective as a single player in D1, and the penalty for dying wasn't severe (outside of D1). [quote]The new weapon system in September may fix a lot of issues for both of us but I still don't think it's gonna fix the team shooting issue.[/quote] It will help....but I've never said that it would "fix". The only way it will fix the problem (in terms of creating much more room for alternate playstyles) is if the weapon slot changes come along with a MAJOR sandbox re-tuning. Including: 1. A reduction of TTK to a maximum of 0.85 secs....preferably down to 0.6 secs. 2. A buffing of ability cooldowns to their Year 3, D1 levels. 3. A "de syncing" of obtaining your Super so that everyone in the lobby isn't getting it at about the same time every match. 4. A generous enough ammo economy that the threat of special weapons is an ever-present one. 5. A reduction of melee klls from three hits back to two. PUT TOGETHER....this will make Guardians much more effective in PVP as individual players, and begin to reward players for aggressive play rather than continually punishing them for it.
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The special weapon meta was created because of the the constant nerfs to our primaries. You will never see a .6 ttk for primaries, ability buffs and ammo generosity is a possibility but the you'll never see a primary gun fight again. I still don't think the team shooting will stop. Players tend to gravitate for the easiest way to win and they are now conditioned to work together.
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[quote]The special weapon meta was created because of the the constant nerfs to our primaries.[/quote] Agreed. [quote]You will never see a .6 ttk for primaries[/quote] Probably not, because Bungie STILL isn't willing to let go of the legacy of Halo. But that is what the game really needs it wants to have a healthy and sustainable "primary" meta, that doesn't break the game. [quote].....ability buffs and ammo generosity is a possibility but the you'll never see a primary gun fight again.[/quote] You will if Bungie brings the TTK down to the 0.8 range. That was the TTK of the "Nirwens Mercy" and vanilla MIDA metas during the early part of The Taken King in Y2 D1. People still bitched about The Conspiracy Theory D....but the complaining about OHK weapons in this game will NEVER stop, because you have some people who think that there shouldn't be ANY OHK weapons in a shoter. Which is ridiculous. But the Nirwen's Mercy and MIDA metas were both primary weapon metas. That ended up getting nerfed because of the nerfherders who always want to blame the gun for their lack of success....and Jon Weisznewski's agenda to keep nerfing weapons and keep slowing TTK as an means of trying to slow down asd "Halo-ize" Crucible play. [quote] still don't think the team shooting will stop. Players tend to gravitate for the easiest way to win and they are now conditioned to work together.[/quote] Don't need it to stop. You just need the means to COUNTER it...AND ATTACH SOME REALISITIC RISK TO PLAYERS THAT WANT TO STAND SHOULDER-TO-SHOULDER AND engage in team fire. That risk of a team wipe was a real one in Destiny 1. Its rude joke in Destiny 2.
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Agreed and yes this is true for any game. I don't understand where people get that teamshooting isn't a viable tactic.
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Edited by AbakusFlynch: 7/12/2018 6:23:08 PMTL;DR: Reduced TTK (for melees, abilities, supers, and weapons) would open up the option for a more aggressive play style and a better chance for a [u]skilled[/u] player to successfully challenge more than one opponent. It is not that it is not a viable tactic but that it has become the [u]only[/u] tactic with any chance of success. The overall play style in D2 is completely different than D1 where the majority of confrontations that could be won in CQ situations (D1) have now been reduced by mid to long range confrontations (D2). Reduced TTK is not a panacea for what ails D2 nor would it ever replace a skilled team being able to control the map. If a team decides to stick together then that is typically the most optimal situation. The structure of D2 almost completely eliminates any WOW moments because it is very difficult to actually pursue any confrontation of more than a 1v1 because no one can deal damage fast enough or withstand enough damage before they are killed by more than one opponent. Most players do not feel comfortable enough to just Rambo the map as they know they will eventually hit the full team because no one else separates. In D1 you had backup options that each on their own could deal lethal damage. That is what kellygreen2 was trying to get across. He had multiple resources available that gave him enough damage output to take on the opponents as they came and still prevail. Now had all four opponents attacked him at once then he would still not been able to overcome them but he could at least put up a fight. In D2 the higher TTK exacerbates the lack of damage output through weak melees, weak weapons, and slow to charge supers. All of these issues only reinforce team shooting not because people just feel it is the best way to win but because it is the only way to win. That is why so many people enjoy mayhem. We still have the same weak weapons and melees but being able to spam supers allow people to challenge multiple opponents and be successful.
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[quote] Reduced TTK (for melees, abilities, supers, and weapons) would open up the option for a more aggressive play style and a better chance for a [u]skilled[/u] player to successfully challenge more than one opponent. [/quote] Lol this is such a bullshit and bias statement. Why does everything have to revolve around "aggressive" play? Lower ttk just makes it [u]easier[/u]. That's all I get out of wanting lower ttk. Easy kills. No strategy just point and shoot kills. A skilled player can still do those things he just needs thumbskill. The only thing on D2 that needs to improve for those moments is better abilities and heath recharge not lower ttk.
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TL;DR: Does reduced TTK make me a better player? It helps. Will I beat a more skilled player? On occasion. Reduced TTK will not affect the skilled players as much as the lesser skilled because skill always rises to the top. You are correct, a player with better thumb skills can and usually does outplay their opponents which is why great players will always rise above the rest. If they are given the same weapons/abilities or even lesser weapons/abilities then their skill will help them overcome their opponents. This is no different than any other real world scenario. These people become professionals within the area of their expertise. Anyone can play aggressive in D2 but not everyone can be successful at playing aggressive. Reduced TTK cannot make a bad player great but it can at least help offset some confrontations just through pure luck. The Graviton Lance is a prime example of creating a faster TTK which allows lesser skilled players to engage opponents in situations they would not have before the buff. Faster TTK is not just about the rate of fire but also about the speed of damage output and the ability to control those aspects. The GL is potent enough and forgiving enough that it makes it very easy for anyone to use. Will it win every fight...no. But it does allow for people to play more aggressive because they feel more confident which is why it is so prevalent in PvP now. I like playing Sentinel, not because I am good with it but because I enjoy trying to melee, charge, and shield bash. I will play aggressive with these mechanics using certain exotics that enhance the damage output, which are designed to reduce the TTK. I will not play this way using my warlock or my hunter because neither one of them have sufficient enough armor to deliver the same damage output at close quarters as the titans. This is not to say that warlocks and hunters don’t beat my Sentinel at CQ, as they do more often than not, but rather I feel more confident in my up-close attacks because my armor/exotics offer reduced TTK in some situations. This allows me personally to play more aggressive with very specific gear in very specific situations.
