that chart shows night-stalkers are the second lowest as of the 29th.

You mean second best? Right? Sentinel and dawn blade are the last ones

gunslinger: 47.4113 Nightstalker:47.9158 Sunbreaker:48.6481

Ok, lets break this down "So you want your crutch back?" If you have read the post then you will see that this isn't a matter of using invisibility as a crutch. Instead it is a matter of logic. When something is invisible it is harder to hit. Or at least it should be, that's just a fact. Does that make hunters impossible to shoot? No, not at all. It just means you need to aim without the extra help, thus making it a matter of skill. If you noticed though, I have even stated that I have been on both sides of this and don't feel it makes sense that I can just aim down sights and automatically know where an invisible player is. "And you want hunters to pretty much be invisible against everything?" Now this question is a bit of a gem really. If you are implying 24/7 round the clock invisibility for some reason then no... no I do not... If you're asking in reference to when they activate cloaking then yes, when you turn invisible typically that means you are invisible for everyone, that is just how invisibility works... Wouldn't make a lot of sense if you only turned invisible for some and not for others... "How about no?" Why not? Nightstalker is a stealth oriented class. To lack the muscle and durable nature of the other two classes means that stealth tactics are your bread and butter when it comes to combat. By this logic we should probably remove guns too as being shot at by our enemies makes it harder to kill them also. Or lets make it so we can shoot through titan barricades. I mean hunter cloaking has disabled aim assist but never has it stopped bullets from causing harm. I'm looking at that chart but it isn't telling the same story you are telling me. I'll start with KDA. Immediately we can see that they aren't even the biggest concern as that role goes to arcstriders. In fact, based on the time frame of that chart I would say that striders would be the larger concern. Moving on though, what you're forgetting, is that in this game, KDA is calculated based not only on kills but assists as well. That said, the nightstalker class is built as a support class. It's abilities are based on gimmicks above sheer damage output. Smoke, tethers, territory control grenades. None of their abilities are made for head on combat but instead to affect more targets so as to allow allies to kill them. What that means is that their KDA should be high because their whole purpose is to play a role in helping with every kill they can on the battlefield. Now on to win rate. Again you'll notice that striders are dominating the boards. Whereas nightstalkers have plummeted to the second lowest, just above gunslinger. One hunter class at the top, two at the bottom... Weird how quickly nightstalker sank in wins... almost like it couldn't support it's team from a lack of defensive component. If only they had some type of ability to compensate for their lack of lethal focus like some type of magical healing circle, or some kind of deployable barricade, or even some type of functional invisibility. As for popularity, they maintain on a middle ground. This means that their decrease in wins and KDA was not caused by a decrease in player use and solely falls on some other alteration. Perhaps a change in regards to survival as a nightstalker. When your abilities focus on support over lethal damage and you possess no healing or barricade ability you will lose most of your 1v1 engagements as you lack the raw power of your enemy and have no method of defense or escape. Thank you for bringing that chart to my attention though. Very helpful.

All I’m going to say is... NO!!! Turning invisible on a 20 second cool down ability WITH NO AIM ASSIST is a unfair advantage just like the whole hunter class. And it’s not right that all three hunter subclasses are above the rest. So kid just stop hunters need a BIGTIME NERF!!! And that’s the only nerf this game needs.

When you lack lethal abilities and any other form of defense it isn't unfair at all. All classes should have advantages. To be able to spawn a barricade or heal you and all allies is an advantage too. You seem to have a bias opinion without any evidence to prove you point. In fact the evidence you have given proves you wrong... Also, how are all three hunter subclasses above the rest? The chart that you supplied clearly shows that they are not. If you wanted to tell me that they are all above the rest then you honestly should not have come with evidence to prove otherwise... In any case, I can respect your opinion but you're making it based on your own bias without looking at any facts. Facts that I would like to remind you once more you have supplied.

Bungie took away titan and warlock advantages and gave hunters LITERALLY all their crutches and the best exotics. Kid please...

erm.....the -blam!-? titans and warlocks get cool shields while our dodge is fully aimboted......thats right dude, ppl literally aim near me not at me and ehen i dodge they get a kill for spraying at a wall near someone. also, wanna talk about stats? how does mobility help right now? huh? walk speed? useless cos u cant dodge shots in pvp unless ur playaing against a completely braindead guy who is tryna spray with a handcannon and everyone else gets mad health regen and can survive longer? i cant believe that some titans are ignorant enough to ask for a buff to resilience and not give a second thought to dodge aimbots

See that's what I'm saying. Is that you should need to do more than just aim in a general direction when your enemy is invisible. I'm glad others that have noticed this are saying something too.

yeah its stupid, the other day some guy literally just sprayed the map with shots and just cos i tried to dodge away it lets him aimbot hit me. #huntermasterrace

See that's what a lot of people aren't grasping about dodge as a whole. It's for when you're really injured so most people using it are near death and when a hunter uses it, unlike other class abilities, they cannot fight back. They lower their gun and cannot shoot for the duration of the dodge. Though dodge and cloak are technically too separate issues, I must agree that I don't get the complaints. It is the only ability that lasts for less than a second and leaves you defenseless for its whole duration.

Lmao no they didn't....again he gave actual facts...hunters have absolutely nothing but the roll out of the way/invisibility perks (which now do nothing) while titans have two barricades that damage opponents who walk through and blocks shots and warlocks who heal or cause more weapon damage when in the rift

You mean self resurrection or one hit kill shoulder charges? So we're just going to overlook having two pulse grenade charges, which are the most destructive grenades in the game then? Or devour which can keep you in a consistent state of health? They took things away and added others. That's called changes. Though since you've mentioned all these "crutches" hunters have I'd be happy to know what they are. I don't wish to be bias so if there is something I'm overlooking in regards to this topic please shed some light on it. On exotics though, first of all, this topic has nothing to do with exotics. And secondly, exotics are varied... there are some good and some bad. In my personal opinion, I find with hunter exotics there is either over powered or under powered with little in between. Frankly I'd like to see that changed. There are exotics like orpheus rig that are over powered in pve and gemini jesters that can be a pvp nightmare. And yet, we have things like lucky pants that pale in comparison to things like the war rig or peacekeepers as they just reload weaponry rather than reload one bullet at a time for each headshot kill you can achieve. Or the sealed ahamkara grasps that reload a gun on a melee kill, which overlaps with other abilities like marksman dodge, chain of woe, or even gun perks. Like I said though, this isn't about exotics. Also, respect would be greatly appreciated. "Kid" is quite impolite.

"'OHK shoulder charges'' = Lost your topic validation with this sacrilege, you don't play crucible to say that.

I was not the one to divert from topic. He had made mention of other classes losing abilities. But regardless, I can only remain on track as much as those I converse with. Otherwise both parties are on completely different topics and it is no longer a conversation.

They nerfed the nightstalker yes it was op, now it isnt, now arcstriders are op. You see what is always the main source? Hunters. Wanna see something cool? Take a look at your crucible emblem, im 100% positive hunter are the most killed, not because they are the '' poor little weak beings at destiny universe'' it's because they op as hell, i'm not hating i love warlocks and titans but i have a hunter too. The only solid consistent game i have is with hunters, AND I SUCK, now imagine with skilled players? Hunters are strong to the point , not skilled players like myself wreck people out there.

I can agree that changes need to be made with the arcstrider. In fact, I advocate that idea. God knows it shouldn't be riding that high over the others. In contrast with the rest of the nightstalker's abilities I would actually say that it's cloaking was a good fit rather than over powered. As mentioned before, it lacks any other means of defense. For other classes, when they deployed their defenses, I felt as though I was earning those kills because I had to find ways to overcome them. But against a nightstalker, I need only aim down sights in their general direction and the game does the rest for me... Also, I am confused by your logic... "Take a look at your crucible emblem, im 100% positive hunter are the most killed, not because they are the '' poor little weak beings at destiny universe'' it's because they op as hell" This statement says that hunters are the most killed of the three classes because they are blatantly more powerful than the other classes? If a class is killed more than any other class then that doesn't make it an over powered class, it makes it under powered and unable to compete with the others... "imagine with skilled players" I can agree that to go against a skilled player using cloaking can be nightmarish at best. But the bottom line there is that it is always too difficult to fight those with more skill than us, no matter what they are using. That's just how player skill works. But assuming we are against somebody of equal skill the battle should be less one sided, and with the nightstalker's lacking defense and minimal offense, one sided fights are assured unless they can fight players of lower skill to compensate for the lack of their character's abilities. As a side note, all classes do operate with different play styles. Maybe you have more consistent games with hunters because it suites your play style better?

More hunters killed because it's basically all you see in the crucible. People know that hunters are strong so they use it. Everything that is op is over abused by destiny players, vex, suros, pocket infinity the laser festival. Now it's hunters in general with all thousands of broken exotics.