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12/24/2017 8:31:32 PM
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It's a movie about letting go of the past made for an audience who can't let go of the past.
I thoroughly enjoyed it. A little long, but other than that I can't really complain.
English
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I'd agree with you in a vacuum, because in a vacuum, this isn't a bad movie. (spoiler alert below) In that vacuum, the other 8 films (I-VII and Rogue One) don't exist, so it can't be derivative. In that vacuum, it's a standalone movie and not Episode VIII of a series that it doesn't align with. But that's the problem -- you can't throw the past out the window. You can't ignore that this is Star Wars. You can't ignore that there were 6 films in the series before Disney got their hands on it, all of which who have tread the very same ground that Episodes VII and VIII brazenly attempt to retread. While the movie was mostly enjoyable by itself, most of the time I could point to one of those two issues being present. It was either pulling plot points or lines directly from the original trilogy, or off doing something that doesn't feel much like Star Wars -- often feeling more like something from the Marvel universe. It wasn't nearly as derivative as Episode VII, but I looked at the interactions between characters and I saw reskins (some of them ever-so-slightly altered reskins) of character dynamics I'd already gone through in the first 6 films. Lines I heard were often plucked from early films. There were nice action scenes and the CGI was gorgeous as expected, but I found myself bored for long stretches of the movie over events that I'd already seen before. Part of the issue are the characters, like it was back in Episode I, and to a lesser extent, Episode II. I don't know all of these protagonists the story is throwing at me. You have Rey, who is apparently this random Mary Sue scavenger with no connection whatsoever to the rest of the canon. You have Finn, and Poe, who were much better-developed characters, but still not well-connected. You have Kylo Ren, who was left underdeveloped and stranded from the canon in Episode VIII. You have Snoke, who dies without anybody finding out who the hell he was. Yoda comes back briefly, but not Obi-Wan or Anakin. (I understand the limitations of the aging process/death but we saw what happened with Peter Cushing in Rogue One) Luke dies and Leia appears to be en route to be written out of the story, leaving three remaining characters from the original six films: Chewbacca, C-3PO, and R2-D2, none of which who project to be major characters going forward into the final film of the trilogy. There are some interesting characters but it's just not Star Wars any more. At least the prequel trilogy had Obi-Wan and Yoda and then Anakin/Darth Vader later on before they tied it neatly into the canon in Episode III. These characters are completely new and they haven't grown into the canon yet, and we're looking at a bleak Episode IX without any strong "veteran" characters to keep the film feeling like Star Wars.
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If you want to watch Star Wars, they already made Star Wars decades ago.
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Exactly my point.
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There is a difference between letting go of the past, and ignoring precedent for established ways the universe works. What the fool did in this film was take blue, throw it out the window, and insist that blue is now red.
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In what way?
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Example 1: Past movies defined how warfare is conducted Last Jedi: Hyperspace ram anything for devastating results. Example 2: In Star Wars, the force, be it an active living thing, or a result of intracellular symbionts is not a thing one can innately master. It does not get stronger in someone simply because you are light side and the dark side dude over there is training, honing his skill/passion and becoming more powerful. Example 3: (not so much an example of changes in the foundation of Star Wars, but more so atrocious writing) Each instalment has been a part of a trilogy. In each previous trilogy, there is a clear, understandable and sensible movement towards some greater objective - yet in each trilogy, introduced characters and subplots are not ignored or tossed aside, but fleshed out and explored quite deeply (only leaving the most detailed parts to other forms of media). Where as in the last Jedi, the preceding films is made entirely unnecessary and pointless with perhaps only the destruction of the New Republic having any reason for the Force Awakens to exist at all.
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1: Do you know how stupid this gripe is? The Raddus was the largest ship in the Resistance fleet and could go toe-to-toe with a Resurgent-Class Star Destroyer and win. It is a capital ship, not a tramp freighter. It has the mass to punch a hole through the Supremacy and keep going, as evidenced by the escorting Star Destroyers behind where the Raddus hit being slagged. The Millennium Falcon would have splattered across a Star Destroyer if it tried that in the Original Trilogy. Just like that GR-75 in Rogue One splattered across the Devastator when it came out of lightspeed in front of it. Only, we wouldn't see the Falcon hit the destroyer, all we'd see is a fireball and probably a crater where it hit. Not to mention, that was a desperation move. Admiral Holdo literally had no other choice if she wanted ANYONE ELSE IN THE RESISTANCE TO SURVIVE. 2: So you're going to ignore The Force Awakens for introducing the ability for this concept to come forth? Because how else would Rey, who was literally nobody from nowhere, who probably didn't even have a high midichlorian count or believe in the force, suddenly be able to resist and overpower Kylo Ren's mind reading thing he did, mind trick a trooper, and magically be able to wield a Lightsaber effectively the second time they fight? Lightsabers, which need I remind you, require the force to be able to use effectively because otherwise you won't get the instinctual precognition about how and where to swing to avoid self-amputation. 3: See 2. Also, this seems like a minor, overly nitpicky thing to list as a major concern.
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Edited by Vicex: 12/25/2017 2:21:45 AM1) That’s an absurd rebuttal. Force of the impact, while related to mass, is also related to acceleration, and an acceleration to FTL travel makes mass irrelevant. However, if you assert mass is relevant- well, I’m glad you brought up Rogue One. There we saw a transport go up against a standard Star Destroyer. In The Last Jedi, we see a Star Destroyer sized vessel go up against a MUCH larger flagship that dwarfs the resistance vessel as it’s a bleeding shipyard as well. It’s the same situation scaled up proportionally with a vastly different outcome. 2) We can hand-wave and day Rey was born of the Force like Anakin was. I don’t like it much more than assuming she was just a nobody that the force choose but this remains to be seen. As for the lightsaber combat- yeah, but she doesn’t yield it like a veteran, if you watch the Force Awakens her movements are sloppy and unrefined. Not much better than Finn’s- and she obviously has some train with a similar weapon as evidenced by her introduction where she used her staff. Not great, I’ll give you that. But it is enough to be plausible. Further- it’s been well established that non-Force users can use lightsabers, and if you look to the now ‘legends’ some have used it quite effectively (Fett v Vader). Her use of the Force in the Force Awakens leaves much to be desired, but at the very least it did show her fail to use it correctly and show (however shallow) she was a novice. 3) If you think that’s a insignificant point, well I suppose I should be glad you don’t write scripts.
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Edited by CAD1420Z: 12/25/2017 2:51:29 AM1: And I'm glad you brought up acceleration to FTL. The Raddus made it to FTL, yes, but because of the way hyperdrives work (which was hand-waved away in TFA, and then hand-waved back in for TLJ which aggravates me to no end) is that if a signicant gravitational difference is detected, it powers down the hyperdrive if it's mid-use and the ship returns to real-space. Which may have happened to the Raddus as it approached the Supremacy. Because it WAS in hyperspace, and the Supremacy is likely able to generate at least a partial gravitational pull around it at 60 kilometers across. So take the mass of the Raddus, still decelerating from lightspeed, and slam it into the Supremacy. I imagine the result would be quite similar to how it was depicted in the movie. Also, that GR-75 from Rogue One didn't even get to go to hyperspace, it slammed into the Devastator when the Devastator left lightspeed, which is the reverse of what you're complaining about. I used it as an example of what would probably happen with the size differences. The Raddus also happens to be made by the Mon Calamari, a people who's ship design and engineering is said to be the best in the galaxy. That ship going to lightspeed towards the Supremacy is like firing bullet out of a gun for how well it was likely to hold up, which further cements the resultant scene in TLJ. 2: It's possible her identity will be fleshed out further, but until the next main installment, she is literally Mary Sue, born of Nobody and No-one from Nowhere. As for her combat skills- Why, why do people keep saying her being skilled with a staff would somehow translate to a lightsaber? For one, the weights are completely different, two, they require different muscle memory to be even slightly proficient in, three, going from using a two-handed weapon all her life to a one-handed weapon would NEVER equate to even passable skill levels, which is what she had at the least to be able to contend with Kylo Ren, even if he was injured. That theory/argument/whatever just does NOT make sense and will always piss me off when I see it. I don't mean any offense towards you with this rant, but I just HATE that idea. And I was under the impression that we were talking about canon, which only has General Grievous, who is an extensively trained cyborg, which means accidental amputation isn't debilitating or deadly. Yes, legends had at least Boba Fett, but that is justified by him being the clone of a Mandalorian bounty hunter that taught him everything he could before he died, then going on to get revenge on the Jedi Order as a whole for YEARS of his life, learning how to combat Jedi which also included the 7 lightsaber combat forms and how to use them effectively. Again, extensive training. None of which Rey has. She shouldn't have been able to resist and then make Kylo Ren's mind read backfire then, if she had such a low ability with the Force in TFA. As I recall, that mind trick happened, to her, just after she had been told such was possible before being captured shortly there-after. So she goes from barely having the time to understand a technique's intention, to immediately applying said technique with no understanding of how to actually use it, other than thinking on the fly to try calming down and that will help? I don't buy it personally. 3: Well, as you stated before, each installment was part of a trilogy. So by your argument it stands to reason SWIX will explain most inconsistencies away and everything will be hunky-dory now that you have the extra knowledge to apply to the scenes we've already had. I think my initial response is fitting, going by this logic. Going back to your original point for this number, even if TFA was only about the destruction of the New Republic capitol system (it's not completely destroyed, but is terrified out of it's own skin), that's still a huge plot point. One that resonated with the responseless distress call from Crait that the Resistance sent out.
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So what I'm getting is you're upset because it was different.
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No. You again miss the point. There is a difference between making something different and changing the very foundation to the point where everything made previously is either pointless or have lost all integrity or meaning due to introductions of plot holes .
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Star Wars does need to move on, but if you are going to use the same characters, keep their personalities the same. Luke had an attitude that didn't match him at all, and Leia was weird too. I enjoyed it too, save for the humor. I thought the interactions between Kylo and Rey were really cool.
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You have made my point for me. During the original trilogy, Luke was a boy in the middle of a significantly transformative period that involved discovering his family tree and adopting a new religion. Now he's an old man. You can't expect him to be the same. He's a dynamic character. If the writers had made it so that he was identical to the boy who defeated the Empire, it wouldn't have been believable. That was the entire point of the movie: Nothing, not even the Jedi or the Sith, is immune to the passage of time.
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Edited by TheArtist: 12/24/2017 10:38:31 PMLeia is no longer a brash young woman. She has matured into a wise and crafty leader tempered by the pain of so much loss. Remember her one son murdered his father and is one of the most evil men in the galaxy. Luke empowered that evil man, and became fearful and unsure of himself. But had no one—-until Yoda showed up—to guide him back to being willing to take a chance that he wasn’t doing more harm than good with his power. Remember that the Sith grew out of Jedi who fell to Darkness..and Jedi training multiplies the power of those that fall. I thought the humor was an awesome way to make the point that old structures were breaking down and new ones were forming..,and that the older generation needed to step aside and let it happen. A point I didn’t fully grasp until Yoda did show up and basically told Luke that he has nothing to teach her in terms of training. To the point he destroyed the texts himself to get Luke’s attention. What Rey needed was a mentor not a master, and that Luke needed to stop feeling sorry for himself and be an [i]example[/i] for her. A point Luke finally understood when he sacrificed himself to allow the Resistance to survive. Which will allow him to return as a Force ghost in episode 9.
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Edited by CAD1420Z: 12/25/2017 2:57:37 AM[quote]destroyed the texts[/quote] Actually, the Ancient Jedi Texts survived. Rey stole them before leaving Ahch-To, and they can be seen at the end of the movie in the drawer Finn gets a blanket from.
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Missed that. But then so did Luke.
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Doesn't help that Yoda trolls Luke AND the audience at the same time. That was cheeky.
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He had to snap Luke out of his self-indulgent self-pity. Having apprentices fall to evil is a part of being a teacher. You pass on the knowledge but you cannot control what the student does with it. Count Dooku was Yoda own apprentice. He made the decision to train Anakin Skywalker, only to fail to recognize the danger that is deep well of fear and rage posed. Yoda led the Jedi like lambs to slaughter while fighting a war for a government led by a Sith Lord. But in the end Yoda only ran and hid to protect the knowledge he possessed. Not out of fear of it like Luke did.
