[quote]I think they completely ruined Supremacy. It didn't give a huge advantage to fireteams and now that it's Control 2.0 it's completely biased to them.[/quote] Agreed [quote]In my opinion Bungie made a critical error in switching to the new weapon system. They decided to combine that with not allowing us to progress with endgame rewards. [/quote] To be fair, and I hate putting it so childishly, but the new weapon system just sucks. It just makes no sense from multiple standpoints. Everything else all sort of went in tandem with the way they designed the fundamental system around the PvP system. Can't have excellent endgame rewards if it would unbalance the PvP side. [quote]Nightfalls and raids should be hard, but they should also drop rewards that allow us to progress beyond their power level. That's kinda the point isn't it? To complete high end content for rewards that eventually make that content much easier and us feel like badasses?[/quote] Yes and no. You do not need to lock the most powerful gear behind the highest level content. It just needs to be useful to make that activity easier, i.e. Adding an extra damage modifier to Cabal on weapons, and having an increased move speed bonus when holding the charge within the raid, and that's just two examples of things to make that raid gear more worth collecting, as it benefits you within the content. There are quite a few ways this can be approached to increase worth. Even the VoG stuff was not the be all end all, but most of it was well designed around what they were built for, which was the Raid and PvE content. I can keep going, but I hope you can get the general gist of where I'm going here, and if not, I can always clarify if need be. [quote]But they don't and what's worse is that the prestige level content doesn't either so their is literally no feeling like we are accomplishing anything as we never get stronger and the content never gets easier. The prestige Raid is a bitch. Yeah the challenge is fun the first time, but who wants to spend hours on it every week because the difficulty level never decreases through drops?[/quote] That's why I will still defer to the D1 system being vastly superior to this one. [quote]Where this all ties into the change to the weapon system is that, had they made this change but we were getting Kinetic and Energy weapons from Prestige Nightfalls and Raids that hit like trucks in PvE, I don't think we are having this conversation. People would be coveting those drops and the weapons would be exciting. Hell, even if they dropped at power levels unattainable through other modes of play that allowed us to infuse up our other weapons to be better.[/quote] I disagree that this conversation wouldnt be made. You really have to look at just what made things special and work to get where the value is. By definition they couldn't design them to hit like trucks because they are both "Primary Weapons", and thus as such are never meant to be powerful in that regard. Power level is all but irrelevant by design, as it's just a glorified barrier to entry and nothing more. I will still maintain that the old system was always the superior system due to its flexibility in all spots. I will still maintain there was no point in creating a secondary primary slot for an elemental burn, heck think of the old system setup, except that you can turn your favorite kinetic into an element of your choice via the mod system. This gives more value to these repeat drops just on that factor alone. I understand people's povs regarding this 2 primary system, but I can't help but think that they aren't judging the change fairly themselves, as they are just judging it based off of why D1 became an abilities game, instead of remembering the flexibility before Bungie coined the "Nerf or Nothing" phrase that made weapons weaker and weaker, causing abilities to get the way they did at D1s twilight. I feel that's really why most prefer this new system, and why they are blinded to what the old system was really like back in its heyday. I don't think it helps that this game was built to bring two diametrically opposed gamers (RPG/MMO and FPS) together under one banner, with each having contrasting opinions, and forcing everything to be the same across the board, which is a huge downfall in its own right. [quote]But they didn't and so our double primaries feel weak and inadequate vs the highest level endgame content. Also, I get that there would be an outcry from some of the player base that it's not fair to only get to endgame power that way, but IRON BANNER. Make it mean something again.[/quote] As long as the system is built the way it is, I can't see them really making anything worth the time and effort. Hence why their ethos gets in the way. The only way to get it to mean something is to up its power and regulate availability, and with fixated rolls and this balance direction, that just cannot happen, as it's opposed to one another. [quote]Lastly to kill times, I was telling TKL I think that the weapons feel as close to HoW as far as in relation to each other as I've seen and I like it alot, but the grenades and melee are WAY too weak and ability cooldowns need to be a little faster. Not D1 fast, but midway between what we had then and now.[/quote] HoW is not the best example of balanced to each other, as three Exotic HCs dominated most games inside the crucible, while Autos were the complete opposite. If I would pick a timeframe that was most balanced to relations of one another early TTK (pre Dec) would fall more into that category of balanced to one another because they literally forced it to be that way going into TTK. Ability cooldowns are just painfully slow and painfully weak for the time you need to wait for them. Problem is I cannot see them getting any better because of their focus on crucible balance. If anything I'm fully expecting to see pulse nades receive a damage nerf way before I see them changing things that need to be done in the manner that this game desperately needs, before the life is completely choked out of it. Appreciate this discussion, Sols. 👊 -LK

Great points.