See, the last person I talked with a bit in depth about the Stranger made the same claims about her coming from a different timeline where the Sol Progeny had succeeded in taking over, but when I asked him for evidence of this, he had nothing to give me. So, before I accept anything you say as canon, I'm gonna have to ask you to back it up, please. Nothing personal, I just hear a lot of inferences (cool ones, but inferences) and not a lot of grounding. So if you could provide evidence that the Vex only had a few Ecumene gates, and about the Sol Progeny Victory timeline. However, there are some things I'm going to argue now. 1) You say that if the Traveler made the Vex they would have understanding of the Deep, the Light, and causal/paracausal forces. That's not necessarily true. Yes, the Traveler COULD have given them that understanding, but the Traveler might also have chosen not to imbue them with that information. We met the Traveler and advanced incredible distances, but we still haven't mastered quite a few things that would come before causal/paracausal forces. 2) From what I had seen, The Deep was not the Darkness, but rather it was like the Traveler, simply an emissary. It's possible that A) it wasn't The Deep that corrupted the Vex, but something else, and B) that the Vex were limited in their functionality by the Traveler and his creating/constructing them, even with their immense problem solving/simulation methods, and have struggled to become more powerful since then. They have also been shown to be a grave threat in many ways, having battled with Oryx's children for a local year, and being at a stalemate. That makes them STILL very powerful. Sure, they could be MORE powerful, but we may not have seen the full extent of their power yet. 3) Oh, and in the cutscene when the Guardian enters Crota's Temple to go destroy the Shrine to Oryx, The Stranger talks to you and says, "Guardian, I know what you are about to do. It's brave," and, "Go down and face the Hive." So I defy your notion that The Stranger doesn't know anything about the Hive. She might not be as well versed as Toland, but she's not ignorant to their threat or their importance. So saying, "As the Stranger has no knowledge of the Hive and doesn't seem to care about the Fallen or Cabal," doesn't carry ANY weight to me. We don't know enough about her to know HOW MUCH she knows. She could know a great deal more than you think.

For the Ecumene Vex: [quote]Quria samples the Taox intelligence retrieved from the Ecumene gate. There are useful names. It feeds them to the simulation. [/quote] Directly from the Books of Sorrow: End of Failed Timeline. The Sol Progeny Timeline is inferred, as we know next to nothing about what her future is besides she despises the Vex wholly, has a huge fixation on the Heart of the Black Garden, and that there is a small pocket of human (or other) resistance. 1. That would be a dick move on the Traveler's part... something that the Traveler isn't really known for doing. 2. It seems used the same way to me. Oryx never refers to his power as Darkness. He says "What you call Darkness is the end of your evolution!". We call the Deep the Darkness, but Oryx still calls it the Deep. 3. She may know about the Hive, but there is evidence of Vex breaches in her final card on the Moon. The fact that she isn't chasing the Hive suggest that the Vex are a much stronger force, but we only know that to be true if they use their powers to become stronger than the Taken. So far, the only way to do that is through the Heart. She says "there are enemies out here you would not believe". I'm sorry, the Taken is something I wouldn't believe. Time-traveling robots that already have records through the Ishtar Collective aren't completely unbelievable. She's either overdramatic, or she only knows the Vex in the future.

Ecumene Vex? Didn't the vex come from another dimension opened by crota?

The Vex in the book of Sorrows is only a limited view into their past and not fully representative of their power. It says there that it uses the Ecumene gate, but not that their ONLY tool is the Ecumene gate. You're assuming that the information given is the only information. So, the Sol Progeny thing is not definite then? There's no actual proof? Sure, it's possible, but other possibilities are also possible, such as the one I'm proposing. I'm willing to admit that that might not be the direction they're going, but my point is that there is a possibility here, and no definite yet. 1)Who is to say it would be a dick move? It may very well be a part of the Traveler's design that it allows a race to grow before it gives them certain information, to flourish and discover before it instructs them of the great evil, that way they can enjoy life and The Light first. This isn't a new concept either, in Star Trek you've got the The Prime Directive, which states that the Federation aren't to interfere with developing worlds until they develop warp technology and interaction with alien species becomes inevitable. The Prime Directive prevents the Federation from altering another culture and destroying what they are by distributing technologies or other problems that will ultimately change said culture irreparably. So the Traveler may also have done this with the Vex, but before the Vex were ready to learn of the Darkness, they were corrupted. 2) Once again, maybe. And that's a cool theory. But it's still possible that it's two separate entities, as we're not told that it's one entity. There's even the grimoire card where someone "sees" the Darkness enter a Fallen Captain and watches it change. It can be interpreted literally or figuratively, but it's not impossible for them to be separate entities. 3) You're making a LOT of conclusions that don't make sense. "Configuration worked, mostly. Arrived under the surface, surrounded. Too slow to return, barely fought to a vantage point. Yes there is dark evil here, and not the one we chase. Suggest no other attempts without more care." That's the Hive. After your previous statement that she DOESN'T know the Hive... you're less credible than before. Sure, not chasing the Hive suggests that the Vex might be stronger, but that's only a possibility, still not a definite. We've ALSO been told that there are more dangers out there than the Heart, but similar in nature. While I've suggested that the Vex came from the Traveller on Io, maybe there's something else, like the Heart, on Io that the Traveller awoke, and THAT created the Vex. Once again, possibilities. Also, having looked at the cards where the Vex simulate perfect universes and four scientists have to rescue digital versions of themselves... I wouldn't believe the Vex either. Here's the thing about Lore. Without DEFINITE answers, you have to be careful what you read as fact and what you infer, and keep them separate in your mind. Erasing possibilities because you read a different possibility that makes sense doesn't benefit the story in the long run, as Bungie may go an entirely different direction that neither of us have thought of. One of my favourite lore videos is Myelin Games' theory on Nokris, that Nokris was Crota's brother who got cast into the Vex realm with Crota, and did NOT return victorious, therefore was erased from history, except his statue, which as a piece of the Dreadnaught could not be destroyed. But that's just ONE possibility, not definite, and can't be taken as gospel truth. There's OBVIOUSLY more to the story than what we know already, so it's not a surprising thought to think we don't have all the information to say, "there was only this, there was no that."

I'm not saying that the Ecumene Gate is the only tool. Just pointing out that the Vex didn't have a foothold of our universe as much. I used the Ecumene gates as examples, since the Vex stuff on Venus didn't happen until the Traveler arrived. The Sol Progeny thing seems very plausible compared to many other theories, but I guess we truly don't know. OK, I hate that Nokris theory. Praedyth got lost in time, but his name still appeared in text before he got lost. His physical self can't come back (unless the Vex allow it), but he can still be remembered through the armor and text left behind. Now let's talk about the World's Grave. The World's Grave was meant to document everything the Hive have conquered once it was made. Not the Hive's personal life, but everything the Hive fought. If Nokris was indeed erased from existence, then surely the records would be left behind like Praedyth, right? Someone who has a statue next to Oryx is clearly super important to him, so why would that be the only thing that Nokris is remembered for? Crota has monuments, thousands of kills, and Nokris, as seemingly important as it is, doesn't have anything? Now, about the records (or lack there of) in the World's Grave. The World's Grave is meant to document everything the Hive have conquered. To have no mention of Nokris, supposedly an important being up there with Crota, means he should have entries in TWG, especially if Praedyth had things left behind. Oryx's father was important. He indirectly kick-started this whole op. Since he died before the Hive became the Hive, it'd make sense that he wouldn't be in the World's Grave. It would make sense that he would have a statue so close to Oryx, since the latter cared for the former. But, alas, even that theory has holes. It isn't truth until Bungie straight up tells us. But I stand by my things... Can we at least agree that the Vex still need us for some reason? Even if the Sol Progeny thing happened, we still exist, so why do they need us so?