[u]Questionable[/u] not [u]stupid[/u]. "Stupid" is subjective no matter the degree of said stupidity. They made several [u]questionable[/u] changes but do we really have the Data they went on for that change? Anyone who thinks they make changes without some data behind it is ignorant. The problem is they don't share that data and explain why it means something to their vision of balance. That's not the point though. The vast majority of people complaining have NO idea what real balance is. Most of the suggestions are either flat out ignorant or at most just self-serving.

There are clear stupid decisions Examples: Auto rifle precision multiplier nerf Bloom being introduced (at least make it work correctly, Jesus) Blink nerfs (especially the ones after year one) Year one perks nerds (field scout, send it, etc) Exotic nerfs (some. Not all of them, like thorn. That needed nerfing) A damage nerf to snipers so they won't OHK supers Fusion rifles and shotguns multiple spread nerfs that adds inconsistency I can keep going

[quote]Exotic nerfs (some. Not all of them, like thorn. That needed nerfing)[/quote] You just invalidated anything else with your addendum there. Thorn didn't need to be nerfed.

Thorn didn't need it....but its nerf was inevitable. Too many people just refused to accept its DoT as a legitimate play mechanic. They would have never stopped complaining until it was removed.

And now all those players complain about OHK grenades, shotguns, weak primaries and exotics not feeling exotic. Go figure

EXCUSE ME?

You're excused

[quote]You're excused[/quote] [spoiler]http://m.imgur.com/kkoTyBs?r[/spoiler] How was the thorn NOT op? Just to make sure a mod doesn't ban me, the image above is a meme jesus

Because other guns shot back.

[quote]Because other guns shot back.[/quote] HAHAHA Should vex mythcolast be returned to OP state? Should brink be returned to y1? Should final round be brought back? Should shot package be brought back? Should vanilla suros be back? Should tlw/hawkmoon be back? Should vanilla fusions be back?

Uh, yeah.

"Stupid" is still subjective. Doesn't matter how many people agree unless it's EVERYONE it's subjective.

Majority, then. Because it is IMPOSSIBLE to have every single person agree on something 100%. For God's sake, they nerfed blink and shotgun accuracy! The only thing that took skill on shotguns and trashed a movement ability that was NEVER broken

Shotgun accuracy "while in the air". Something that was an exploitive tactic anyway and contributed to its over effectiveness. Blink by its nature is a problem child ability. They removed the nerd to shotgun mobility so they needed to make sure Blink shotgunning didn't become a thing again. Did they maybe go too far with the duration? Sure but I understand the motivation.

You do realize that you're playing an augmented mobility shooter....right?

We've had a similar discussion before. Movement should never the effectiveness, or over-effectiveness, of a weapon. It can enhance the use of it but not make it [u]more[/u] effective because what will happen then is people will gravitate to that movement tactic because it gives a [u]distinct[/u] advantage. That's what Jump/Shotgunning was.

Movement determines RANGE....and whether or not your engagements are decisive. If you have fast-moving players and slow killing weapons. Unless you have very steep damage fall offs, people can simply RUN at (or away from) their targets to neutralize any range disadvantages of their weapons. Which is precisely the problem that has plagued this game for two years now with its "special weapons" metas. If you have fast moving players and slow-killing weapons. One v one engagements are going to be indecisive. Because you'll allow the player who has been caught unaware, too much time to escape. Which is going to frustrate the player who initially outmaneuvered him. Which only contributes to the OHK weapon problem. Jump shotgunning exists in this game, because it is a AUGMENTED mobility game....and therefore gets played in three dimensions. The three-dimensional aspects to movement makes the game less predictable...and makes it harder to force your will on another player through map control. IOW, Less advantage to you hardscoping a long line of sight if I can move around that LOS or move THROUGH it above or beyond your sightline. So taking an aerial approach---and exploiting a quirk in the game that allows a player to ADS looking downward faster than they can do so looking UP, allows that shotgun rusher to effectively be able to close as a faster rate. Thus effectively weakening the power of his weapon. The flip side of that is backpedalling. This tactic has become cemented in the game because it is the most effective way of managing the fact that the game's primaries are so underpowered. Backpedalling essentially creates "negative space", and SLOWS the closing speed of the shotgun rusher. Thus buying the player valuable time that his primary weapon needs to kill. Which seals MY point. Because backpedalling while gunfighting didn't really appear in this game until Bungie nerfed ARs into the ground....and forced people to turn to hand cannons as the next most efficient weapon. Only to find out that HCs didn't kill fast enough to allow the player to stand his ground in the face of that rush, like ARs had. TLDR: What Bungie is trying do here isn't working...and is never going to work. Because the speed of player movement...player abilities...and natural selection (the game rewards the player with the shortest TTK)....will continue to unbalance the game.

[quote]Movement determines RANGE[/quote] This has been a philosophical difference between us. Movement [u]enhances[/u] range. The range of the weapon doesn't change but how quickly you can move with it [u]enhances[/u] it's effectiveness. That's how I think about it. However that's not what I'm talking about with the Jump/Shotgunning thing. The effectiveness of Jump/Shotgunning wasn't brought about my the movement in and of itself. It was the angle of attack combined with precision damage that made it overly effective. Overall I think it would have been fine with just the removal of precision damage to shotguns. Again, even though we're dealing with an AUGMENTED mobility game, the movement advantage should only be in positioning, not to enhance the actual effectiveness of the weapon. [quote]So taking an aerial approach---and exploiting a quirk in the game that allows a player to ADS looking downward faster than they can do so looking UP, allows that shotgun rusher to effectively be able to close as a faster rate. Thus effectively weakening the power of his weapon.[/quote] See above. The "higher ground" shot that it gave the player allowed for a more effective shot on their target because it allowed for an easier cluster of precision hits. It wasn't just about the movement or positioning. The accuracy and over-effectiveness of shotguns in the air was a problem. I'm not completely debating that what Bungie is doing is working or not. The point of me doing this thread was to semi-rant at all the people who think they know better.

Not a philosophical difference. Not where balancing is concerned. Shotguns were a problem in this game (prior to 2.5.0.2) for ONE reason, and one reason only: Primary weapons in the game killed too slowly to create ANY sort of meaningful disadvantage to the player armed with a shotgun. In fact, that player with the primary weapon was barely a threat that the shotgunner had to respect. In Titanfall. If you are running around with a shotgun as your principal weapon (which Respawn is more than happy to let you do.) You are armed with gun that has twice the range and the killing power of any shotgun in Destiny. It kills at ranges that would have Destiny players HOWLING in outrage. Plus a Pilot can move significantly faster than a Guardian can. SO YOU HAVE LOTS OF PEOPLE RUNNING AROUND WITH SHOTGUNS AS THEIR PRIMARIES, RIGHT? WRONG. Wrong because Respawn tunes the killing power of their primaries to the speed of player movement. Therefore-----despite the power of shotguns and the speed of Pilot movement----ARs, SMGs and other multishot weapons are powerful enough and kill quickly enough that being caught OUTSIDE of shotgun range with one is a serious....usually FATAL....liability. OTOH...in Destiny. Despite having what are arguably the weakest shotguns in FPSs (especially after NINE previous nerfs) had a MAJOR shotgun spamming problem that Bungie was only able to get under control by basically starving the entire GAME of special ammo. WHY? Because the game's multi-shot weapons are so weak...and kill so SLOWLY compared to the speed at which players can move....THAT BEING CAUGHT OUTSIDE OF SHOTGUN RANGE WITH ONE IN YOUR HANDS IS SIMPLY NOT A LIABILITY. [b]Because in most cases you were---and still ARE----able to simply just RUN AT the person firing at you...and close the distance to the range of your own weapon, before that multi-shot weapon can kill you. [/b] Which makes them relatively overpowered....and the games de facto primary weapon. If there lots of advantages to a shotgun's use...and no practical disadvantages WHY WOULD I EVER PUT IT DOWN? Secondly---respectfully----you're simply wrong about jump shotgunning. One. A shotgun only needs precision damage when its trying to get a OHK at its maximum range. Two. It only needs that maximum range when its trying to outduel someone else with another shotgun or special weapon. Three. Most of the time, someone whose trying to jump shotgun is taking on someone who is arimed with a primary, or trying to use an ability. As someone who mains a Warlock is spend a LOT of time dealing with Hunters who try to us this "Death From Above" technique. So I am INTIMATELY familiar with why and how it works. One. Being in the air makes them a harder target to detect, since the radar is poorly sensitive to where the player is located vertically. Two. The augmented mobility of the game gives the agile Hunter and advantage and makes them more difficult to hit in the air than on the ground. Because they now have an additional degree of Freedom of movement that isn't available on the ground. Lastly---once again----you ADS more slowly when looking up in this game than you do looking down. Which is why you seldom see anyone aggressively attacking another player from BELOW. Only from above. All of which effectively speed the closure rate for the rusher by making him a more difficult target to track and hit. Bottomline? I had no more difficulty using the "Death from Above" approach post-patch than I did pre-patch. All you have to do is change your speed and angle of approach. Also. the community aren't supposed to be the experts here. BUNGIE is....and its frankly disgraceful that they are still struggling after nearly 3 years to balance a game system that is very similar to one that Respawn is able to practically get right (by comparison) on Launch Day.

The data showed that other weapons where underpowered, not that other weapons suddenly became op