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1/24/2017 2:30:45 PM
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1. The Traveller amassed an army of the already-dead (us) to defend itself. Oryx and his sisters destroy whole worlds and civilizations....and TAKE the living (The Taken) to create a ghost army....to serve The Darkness.
2. We don't know what happens when/if The Traveller Awakens. The Darkness gave us The Collapse, and The Fallen The Whirlwind.
3. Why? Because The Darkness (through the Worm Gods) gave the Hive rulers (Oryx and his Sisters) what is essentially immortality....as long as they are willing to prey upon others. (The same Deal with the Devil that comes with vampirism...a deal that many fictional humans have made themselves). The average hive---through symbiosis with the worm larvae---was given power and a significantly longer life.
No one knows what is going on with the Vex. Whether they serve The Darkness...or whether they are simply accommodating it...in an effort to assure their own survival.
4. The Hive made what is known as the Faustian Bargain. Named after Dr. Faustus. Who sold his soul to the Devil ( Mephistopholes) in exchange for Knowledge and Power. Religious and pop culture history is filled with stories of people who will willingly hand themselves over to evil....allow themselves to be corrupted...in either desperation or greed.
Whether it's Judas Iscariot agreeing to betray Jesus to the authorities for 12 pieces of Silver. Genies (who are demons---djin--- in Islamic theology) granting wishes. Or the blues guitarist Robert Johnson having reputed sold his soul to the Devil at a crossroads in exchange for his ability to play the blues, and for fame.
The bait, however, always has a HOOK. In that the deals never turn out well for the person making them...and the Devil (Evil) never grants the "gift" in quite the form the person wants/expects.
The "Hook" in the bait for the Hive is that the hunger of the worms is insatiable. The more Light and Life it consumes, the more it hungers. So the result becomes an existence that is so painful and devoid of any meaning that you simply exist to destroy.
Which is why suiciding is so much a part of the mythology of vampires. Some very ancient vampires find that their existence becomes so painfully empty, that, one day, they just walk out into the Sunlight and kill themselves.
TLDR:
The Traveller may not---and probably isn't----a force for Good as we Humans understand it. But the Darkness is most DEFINITELY Evil.
Dont' kid yourselves.
English
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Isn't that what the Traveller did. Without asking? It brought us back, we were handed a gun and expected to kill. We can't die unless our light is extinguished, or our ghost destroyed. We gain more power as we fight drawing that light back into us. What happens when the Traveller wants its power back?
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Edited by TheArtist: 1/24/2017 7:24:18 PMNo. 1. We were DEAD....and in exchange for what is essentially IMMORTALITY (never mind a second chance at life)....we're asked to defend the Human Race from annihilation. I think that's a pretty good deal. If I'd been my Guardian, after the Speaker's intial talk and my Ghost confirming his story. I've have been like, "Hand me a weapon, and show me what needs to die." Remember, we aren't in their back yard smashing up shit. They're in OURS. We were created when the Darkness came here to Destroy EVERYTHING...and Rasputin left The Traveller with no alternatives (Pseudo-Altruism. Midnight Exigent). So Rasputin crippled the Traveller and forced it to stay and fight, rather than flee like it normally did. 2. No one knows. At worst, the survival of the Human Race against the Darkness is assured. We Guardians die our Final Death. We're no worse off than before....and Humanity has been saved from Extinction. Again, a pretty good deal. Like I said, I suspect (in the end) The Traveller represents a force of Nature----or even Creation itself----that is not really "Good" as we Humans understand it. But there is a REASON why the Leviathan in the Book of Sorrows BEGGED Auryx and her sisters to turn back and not succumb to the seduction of the Worm Gods and the Darkness. The Traveller may not be entirely GOOD....But the Darkness is most certainly Evil....and trying to draw some sort of moral equivalency (at this point) between the Traveller and the Worm Gods; between the Light and the Dark; and between Guardians and the Hive.....is a waste of time.
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You're calling black and white. It's never that easy. Guardians fight for the survival of the human race? Don't the hive fight for survival as well? If they don't wage war their worms will rise up and consume them. It not about morals. You claimed it was a Faustian bargain, guardians weren't even given an option. If those ghost woke you, you were stuck. The worm gods offered power at a price. If you don't inquire into that price then it would be your own fault. While the darkness is evil, yes it's a big bad in the game, it's only evil because we're the ones opposing it. History is written by the victors.
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[quote]guardians weren't even given an option. If those ghost woke you, you were stuck.[/quote] This right here is what gets me. In the quest for Cayde's stash you find the "guardian" that your ghost found who said no that he's seen enough war. In the ROI grims Saladin states that the "guardians" before the iron lords oppressed humanity. That in my opinion says that the dead were given a choice. The guy is cayde's stash said no there for he no longer wanted to fight. The guys from before the iron lords said no we don't want to help humanity and then the one who got corrupted( forgot his name) who decided to start killing guardians and burning villages. That says we had a choice to serve the light and fight the darkness or not. Granted I'm not saying that the traveler is "good" but I don't think it's evil but the darkness from what I understand believes in survival of the fittest and that it must defeat the light because the light helps the weak or allows the weak to live or something, I forget how it works right now.
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I actually forgot about that guardian in caydes stash. Been a while since I did that one. Shout out to halo. I'm assuming that bit with the iron lords is in the grimoire? I've not really been that interested in it since I can't see it in game.
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Edited by TheArtist: 1/24/2017 7:38:27 PM1. Things are rarely black and white....but sometimes they are. 2. Guardians fight for the survival of others. Who wished to be left alone, and determine their own fate. The Hive fight to destroy the Traveller...all who are touched by it...and to advance the ideology of the Worm Gods and the Darkness. The Hive started this fight....and brought it from God Knows Where in the Universe to our doorstep and tried to shove it down our throats. We are simply finishing it. 3. THE TAKEN have no option. They are ripped from this world, plunged into Darkness...and brought back as a mindless zombie army. In many cases sent to destroy their own kind. We were resurrected...but then given the CHOICE whether or not to fight for Humanity. Many of The Warlords did not. The Vanguard is what was created out of a struggle by the Iron Lords to determine what WE would do with the Power we were given. WE chose to be "Bodhisattva" to keep coming back to this world again and again until we are no longer needed for the salvation of OTHERS. If you don't like where you find yourself, you can destroy your Ghost and return to the Realm of the Dead. 4. You clearly don't understand what a Faustian Bargain is. EVERYONE WHO MAKES THAT BARGAIN KNOWS WHAT THE PRICE IS. THEY JUST CRAVE POWER AT ANY PRICE SO GREATLY, THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO PAY IT. Which is why the price is the Soul...and (in Christian theology) the Contract is signed in your own blood. 5. Bullshit on Toast. The only thing wore tham moral relativism is moral cynicism. Moral relativism is at least motivated by a misguided desire to be non-judgemental. Moral cynicism is simply LAZINESS. Marching 6 million Jews to the gas chambers simply bexcause you don't LIKE them isn't evil because Germany and the [url=http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law]-godwinslaw!-[/url] lost the War. ITS EVIL BECAUSE ITS EVIL....and in you can't see that, then something is so profoundly broken in your head, and in your view of the world...I fear for anyone who is unfortunate enough to come into contact with you. The protection of others from annihilation thrust upon them, unprovoked by an outside force isn't good because the winner's write history. ITS GOOD BECAUSE ITS GOOD. The moral flaw here is not within the story, or within the Guardians. Its within you.
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You are quite possibly correct. My views aren't the same as yours. I see nothing but gray, because that's the world we live in. Good and evil are decided by the person. Yes, by current moral standards Hitler was an evil bastard. I don't refute this. I'm simply stating that if Germany had won, everything that happened would be presented in a different way. Modern perspective is a product of the past and the struggles that brought them about.
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Monsters never see monters in the mirror. But just because they don't see it, doesn't mean that there isn't one in the Mirror. Moral relativism is a dangerous indulgence. Moral cynicism is unconscionable laziness. The Arc of the Universe does bend towards justice....but it gets there through struggle. Through learning. Through self-awareness. Through empathy. Not just because some "winning" side has a good PR camapaign. Its becassuse there is a basic human dignity and desire for justice that can only be suppressed for so long. That can only be outraged for so long before it pushes back against those who seek to extinguish it for their own aggrandizement.
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That is a good PR campaign right there. I'm not joking, though I feel like I should be trolling. Take my words as you will. Moral ambiguity is dangerous but allows so much more freedom. I don't do bad things without reason, I mean valid reason. A threat to my family, or self. I see more monsters in my mirror then most people ever know exist. We see each other more clearly then you can imagine.
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Edited by TheArtist: 1/24/2017 8:49:26 PM1. Moral clarity is not PR....and its not the same as moral absolutism. 2. Don't mistake ***License*** for freedom. True freedom only exists within the confines of structure. One built upon self-discipline and respect/empathy for others. If everyone is not free, than no one is really free. 3. True monsters never see a monster staring back at them. Though there are lots of flawed people who would think themselves monsters. [i]"When a neurotic is in conflict with the world, he assumes that he is at fault. When someone with a character (personality) disorder is in conflict with the world, its always the world that is at fault."[/i] The real monsters out there are generally those with the character disorders. If you want to see what a real monster looks like and sounds like. What the true face of evil looks like when it speaks about itself? Google "Ariel Castro". He was the guy in Cleveland who got caught and convicted of kidnapping, assaulting, and keeping in captivity several women over a period of years. He defended himself during his trial (IIRC) and gave a statement at his sentencing. What will absolutely chill you to the bone in listening to this psychopath talk about his actions towards these women was the UTTER lack of empathy for them and what he put them through...the complete self-absorption......and the UTTER lack of any sense of guilty or wrong doing on his part. In his twisted way of seeing things, he was the victim in all this. Not the women the he abducted and basically enslaved. There have only been two times in my life when I was listening to a person speak and I had the gut reaction that I was dealing with something that wasn't really human. The first time was listening to the Gary Ridgway (The Green River Killer) talk about how he would have had to kill his own son if the kid had discovered what he was up to....with no more emotion than one would show in talking about stepping on a cockroach. The other was listening to Ariel Castro. In both situations, my gut was screaming that I was listening to a demon that had taken human form.
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I didn't say it was PR, said it was good PR campaign. It is, even if that not your intent. Your use of morally ambiguous is a little off. You are given three options. 1. Save 50 2. Save 100 3. Save 500 These options are the only options. There is no save them all. Which implies that some will die no matter what. This is morally ambiguous. You choose to save the greatest number, because it's the best option. You then either torture yourself for the rest on your life over that choice or you move on. Being morally ambiguous doesn't make you a monster it's simply a part of what makes many monsters.
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That's not moral ambiguous...its just ambiguous period. All moral decisions/judgements are contextual...and without context there is no possibility of any sort of intelligent moral reasoning. I won't be torturing myself over anything, because without more information I make no decision. Because there are things I can be asked to do that aren't worth saving 500 lives...and things that I would do even if no lives were at stake. Also, it is not ambiguity that makes monsters. What makes monsters is actually the opposite. Malicious, destructive, boundary-defying, The-Ends-By-Any-Means-Necessary..... ...Certainty. Hence the old Muslim proverb: [i]"If a man say he seeks The Truth, he is wise. Follow him. If a man says he has FOUND The Truth, he is dangerous. Shun him." [/i] ...or in more modern terms. Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker: "If you are not with me, then you are against me." Obi-wan Kenobi: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." The danger of moral relativism and moral cynicism is that the both PARALYZE the ability to make contextually appropriate moral judgements. Allowing one to passively stand by...and do nothing (or worse make excuses for)....the "Terrible Simiplifiers" wreck havoc on those around them because they are not plagued any such ambigutities.... ...or hampered by any limits. Either internal or external.
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Accepted. A valid argument. I still hold that any situation, regardless of its moral stance, does fall into the gray. This comes from my own experiences and those shared with me by people who played major roles in my life. If this makes me less than morally capable in your eyes is for you alone to decide. I will continue on as I have since, as at this point in my life, it has yet to steer me wrong even if I have strayed into the darker gray at times. It's odd that I meet someone who can contest my morals with factual ethics. You would be the second one.
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Edited by TheArtist: 1/24/2017 9:28:16 PMI don't know enough about you to judge you. All I can do...and will do...is point out the dangers of the philosophy your are espousing. What you do with that is up to you....and you (and those around you) will have to live with the consequences of the choices you make. As is the case with us all. In general those who tend towards the lighter shades of grey, take responsibility for those choices and those consequences. Those who tend towards the darker shades, generally assign blame for those same choices, and deny any personal responsibility ("I had no choice.....")
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As such, I and those around me will. I make no attempt to hide who I am. If they are close to me they are aware.
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Edited by TheArtist: 1/24/2017 9:30:16 PMWhich is why you strike me as a cynic rather than a monster. Though you have some pretensions towards the latter. ...and in my experience most cynics are wounded Romantics.
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My wife would roll out of her chair laughing if she heard that.
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Edited by TheArtist: 1/24/2017 9:38:23 PMDon't be too sure. She married you. My point is that most cynics are former children who wanted to love the World...and the world (i.e. important people in their lives) spurned those affections. So they convince themselves that they care not....so that they don't have to experience the pain of caring too much.
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Pain is a part of life. That might have been me in my teen years but actually experiencing the world, and learning are key points. If you can do those, you may not change but you can see things from a much broader perspective.
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Pain is a part of life....and a certain amount of it is essential if we are to become wise and spiritually mature individuals. But too much can grind us down, and damage us in ways that interfere with that growth process....and it takes a fair amount of wisdom and maturity to understand that there are these two kinds of pain.... ...and even more to tell what type of pain you're receiving....or about to inflict upon someone else. Pain changes. Change is the only constant in this realm of existence. The only question is HOW it will change you. Will it soften you, and make you more compassionate....or will it harden you and make you more cynical and resentful?
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Change isnt always constant for those who don't wish to learn and grow. Stagnation has flooded the world as it is now with.... I don't even have a word to describe what see in the world. Ethics or Psychology? You had to have at least minored in one but I'm guessing a major.
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Just to point this out i read through this whole thing and reading you guys debate interested me so much im regained my motivation to return to school and study ethics again. Sorry to randomly through that put there just thought it was kinda cool.
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Ethics with a minor in psychology or sociology.
