Switzerland and Singapore.

[quote]Does literally anyone want to have tolls on every corner, subject to price changes on a whim and drastically inconveniencing travel? And depending on how much and where you drive, it could end up being absurdly expensive. Maybe in the hypothetical libertarian utopia it wouldn't work like that though, so if someone could explain to me how, that would be cool.[/quote] Does literally everybody want to have price tags on all the loaves of bread in the supermarket, subject to price changes on a whim and drastically inconveniencing food distribution? And depending on how much and what variety you eat, it could end up being absurdly expensive. Maybe in the hypothetical libertarian utopia... Yeah, a "libertarian utopia" is an oxymoron. It's typically you statists who employ utopian thinking. Also, I find it strange that everybody assumes that toll booths would become the norm. Considering that toll booths slow down traffic, it doesn't seem like a very productive business model. Whichever market participant finds out a way to keep traffic smooth and safe wins a greater share of the market. "That Guy T" on YouTube has a short explanation on how roads could work in a libertarian society. Keep in mind that his ideas are his own, and that there are endless possibilities for facilitating travel in a truly free market.

[quote]This is what I don't get when libertarians sarcastically make comments like "But who would build the roads?!" Does literally anyone want to have tolls on every corner, subject to price changes on a whim and drastically inconveniencing travel? And depending on how much and where you drive, it could end up being absurdly expensive. Maybe in the hypothetical libertarian utopia it wouldn't work like that though, so if someone could explain to me how, that would be cool.[/quote] I feel like this is directed towards me, so I'll respond. For one, taxes would be so low(or the income tax would be eliminated altogether) that small prices would not be such an inconvenience. Local toll roads usually have a pass that allow you to drive right through without stopping to pay--and at a reduced price(I have a pass that works for all toll roads in Florida). So let's say, hypothetically, every road is a toll road. And let's say each state has a pass that allows you to essentially skip the line. That eliminates the inconvenience of waiting. As for prices, they could fluctuate, yes, but it's doubtful. Companies have a goal; profit. If they make drastic price hikes, then people stop using that road. So profits go down. They have an incentive to keep prices steady. Government does not. They forcefully take money from you and use it on whatever they like. However, with toll roads, you'd only spend money when you are actually using it. And, technically, tolls are meant to go away after the road is paid for. I understand this is not always how it works out, but that is how it is [i]meant[/i] to be. I hope stall would approve my explanation.

Satisfactory

Not directed at you specifically, but come to think of it, you have made comments to that effect. Maybe subconsciously, it was directed at you. Anywho. [quote]For one, taxes would be so low(or the income tax would be eliminated altogether) that small prices would not be such an inconvenience[/quote]. Maybe in a fully libertarian society the taxes would be that low, but transitioning to a libertarian society wouldn't be anywhere near fast, and until that point is achieved, I think the prices definitely would be noticeable if roads were suddenly privatized. Roads and other transportation costs only use up about 5% of our state tax dollars according to [url=http://www.cbpp.org/more-than-half-of-state-tax-revenues-fund-education-and-health-care]this[/url], so taxes wouldn't decrease all that much. I'm not so sure tolls would amount to less money spent than if your money had just been taxed to build the roads. [quote]So let's say, hypothetically, every road is a toll road. And let's say each state has a pass that allows you to essentially skip the line. That eliminates the inconvenience of waiting.[/quote] As I understand it from the toll roads I've seen, toll roads as they currently exist are generally long, straight(ish) highway type roads that serve as a direct route to somewhere else. The way this or any toll system would work in towns and cities with hundreds of roads going off one another seems like it would be incredibly convoluted to me. Additionally, it's likely not everyone would have those passes, so there would still have to be toll booths set up like on current toll roads which again, I'm not sure how that would work in town and city environments. [quote]As for prices, they could fluctuate, yes, but it's doubtful. Companies have a goal; profit. If they make drastic price hikes, then people stop using that road. So profits go down. They have an incentive to keep prices steady. [/quote] I don't know. Roads aren't like other products in that you can just substitute them with one another with minimal change in the use they provide. Taking different roads can often be highly inconvenient and time consuming, and simply may not be an option for many people. Additionally, for a lot of roads, such as the one I live on, a firm buying it would essentially hold a monopoly over it. My road is just a loop coming off of another road. There are no other ways to go if I want to travel it. Whoever hypothetically owned it could do whatever they want with it and I don't know what I could possibly do about it short of moving. [quote]And, technically, tolls are meant to go away after the road is paid for. I understand this is not always how it works out, but that is how it is [i]meant[/i] to be. [/quote] I might just be ignorant, but why would private companies work like that? I can understand state funded roads doing that, as state budgets often work at a deficit, but what would be the point of a private firm buying up property and building/maintaining roads just to break even? The point of a having private ownership of a good is to turn a profit.

[quote]Not directed at you specifically, but come to think of it, you have made comments to that effect. Maybe subconsciously, it was directed at you. Anywho.[/quote] Yeah it's kind of a meme between Stall, Auto, and I. [quote]Maybe in a fully libertarian society the taxes would be that low, but transitioning to a libertarian society wouldn't be anywhere near fast, and until that point is achieved, I think the prices definitely would be noticeable if roads were suddenly privatized. Roads and other transportation costs only use up about 5% of our state tax dollars according to [url=http://www.cbpp.org/more-than-half-of-state-tax-revenues-fund-education-and-health-care]this[/url], so taxes wouldn't decrease all that much. I'm not so sure tolls would amount to less money spent than if your money had just been taxed to build the roads.[/quote] I understand. The way I see it, infrastructure only takes up about 3-5% of the governments budget. So I ask the question: why do you believe that it's impossible in a libertarian society? I'm simply arguing for full privatization because that's the argument you brought forth. If I had it my way, nothing would change. I'm simply saying: private roads are possible. [quote]As I understand it from the toll roads I've seen, toll roads as they currently exist are generally long, straight(ish) highway type roads that serve as a direct route to somewhere else. The way this or any toll system would work in towns and cities with hundreds of roads going off one another seems like it would be incredibly convoluted to me. [/quote] Not all private roads are toll roads. Private neighborhoods don't have public roads. Private roads can be payed for by investors, for example. Like I said, just offering alternatives. [quote]I don't know. Roads aren't like other products in that you can just substitute them with one another with minimal change in the use they provide. Taking different roads can often be highly inconvenient and time consuming, and simply may not be an option for many people. Additionally, for a lot of roads, such as the one I live on, a firm buying it would essentially hold a monopoly over it. My road is just a loop coming off of another road. There are no other ways to go if I want to travel it. [/quote] Yes, but it would still be bad for business if the organization owning that road hikes prices needlessly. They would receive public backlash, investors could drop out. Hell, other roads could be constructed at a much lower price to compete with this. [quote]I might just be ignorant, but why would private companies work like that? I can understand state funded roads doing that, as state budgets often work at a deficit, but what would be the point of a private firm buying up property and building/maintaining roads just to break even? The point of a having private ownership of a good is to turn a profit.[/quote] There's always incentives. I won't pretend to know.

[quote]As for prices, they could fluctuate, yes, but it's doubtful. Companies have a goal; profit. If they make drastic price hikes, then people stop using that road.[/quote] I take major issue with this. On my way home, there are indeed multiple roads, but all other roads add at least 30 minutes to my commute, if I'm going all the way around the fastest road. So you're choices for going down the cheapest roads may not really be a choice. Not to mention infrastructure spending at the federal level is about 3% of the budget. So for a person making 30k a year, with current tax rates, about $90 [b]a year[/b] of their income goes to transportation in the federal budget in the form of taxes. You think privatized roads would be cheaper? It cost $10 one way to the toll road from my house to Tampa. I work in Tampa. I avoid that road like the plague.

If infrastructure is only 3% of the budget, then why is it so hard to think that public roads are possible under a libertarian society? Also, not all private roads are toll roads.

You think major traffic veins are going to be free? And I never said they aren't possible. I'm saying they're a terrible idea.

Public roads are a bad idea? But that's what we have right now.

Private roads are a terrible idea, if there was a typo or something you know what I meant.

I posed the question: If infrastructure is only 3% of our budget, then why do you believe that public roads are impossible in a libertarian society? And your response is that it'd be a terrible idea. I think there's a miscommunication on your end.

Yes my mistake. Wouldn't public roads go against the entire libertarian philosophy?

The glorious libertarian paradise! Children are free to work as much as they want! No regulations or accountability! Accidentally spill a few million gallons of oil into our fisheries? Just don't tell anyone, pay off your employees who know, and deny, deny, deny, make counter accusations, and watch your profits soar! Make tons of cash off all the poor saps who have to drink water to survive by buying up all the water mains! So many opportunities! Economic freedom like you've never seen!

[quote]The glorious libertarian paradise! Children are free to work as much as they want! No regulations or accountability! Accidentally spill a few million gallons of oil into our fisheries? Just don't tell anyone, pay off your employees who know, and deny, deny, deny, make counter accusations, and watch your profits soar! Make tons of cash off all the poor saps who have to drink water to survive by buying up all the water mains! So many opportunities! Economic freedom like you've never seen![/quote] This is a gross misunderstanding of the libertarian ideology.

Libertarians don't fully understand the potential consequences of their own ideology.

I could argue the same thing for liberalism and conservatism, but then the argument would just derail into "no u." So, I'll leave you with this. The people have more power than you think. Also, the Non Aggression Principle.