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Edited by Astral Centipede:
7/5/2016 11:00:29 PM
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1) I think you greatly misunderstand the sword logic. The sword logic is gaining power from your kills. [b]The more you kill, the stronger you become[/b]. It is you escaping the laws of reality through causing death.
One application of the power you gain is being able to cut through space itself, and to carve out throne worlds as universes where you respawn to upon death, thus ensuring your survival.
The main point though is it's all about gaining power and strength from killing. Examples:
[quote]Quria deduced the sword logic.
I have to kill everything, Quria resolved. Then I will be powerful. (Verse 4:9 — open your eye : go into it)[/quote]
*sword logic = strength/power from killing.
[quote]You are no longer bound by causal closure. Your will defeats law. Kill a hundred of your children with a long blade, Auryx, and observe the change in the blade. Observe how the universe shrinks from you in terror. (Verse 2:6 — The [b]Sword Logic[/b])[/quote]
[quote]SAVATHÛN said, Auryx my brother and king, [b]I have studied the wounds cut by the Worm our God. Also I have studied the manner of your death and return. These two things are the same, for they are predicated on death and the passage through cut spaces. Let us practice the sword logic until we are sharp. We may then cut our own wounds and step through[/b]. (Verse 3:1 — an incision)[/quote]
*sword logic (strength/power from killing) allows you to cut through space, and allows you to return from death.
[quote]Said Akka, “You have not the [b]strength[/b].”
[b]But this was a lie. Auryx had killed Savathûn his sibling and Xivu Arath his sibling, and he had the sword logic of killing them[/b]. (Verse 3:8 — King of Shapes)[/quote]
*sword logic = strength/power from killing.
[quote]OBLIGATIONS. Once, I permitted Oryx to kill me so that he could gain the sword logic and overcome Akka our God. (Verse 4:5 — This Love Is War)[/quote]
*sword logic = strength/power from killing.
2) The Killing logic is simply proving that you were stronger than what you killed; the fact that you killed your enemy proves that you were stronger. Killing logic is essentially like having a driver's license; having one in your hand doesn't make you a better driver, but it is proof that you already know how to drive.
[quote]“Then kill me,” says Xivu Arath, “and use that killing logic, the power [b]you prove[/b] by killing something as mighty as me.”
[...]
“And strangle me,” says Savathûn, holding a blade behind her back. “Use that killing logic, the cunning you prove by killing something as smart as me.” (Verse 3:6 — star by star by star)[/quote]
*Oryx used the killing logic of killing his sisters to have a meeting with Akka. By killing his sisters, he proved he was worthy of an audience. The kills did make him more powerful, but that power gain is just sword logic. The killing logic part is just about proof of your superiority.
3) The deathsinger Ir Yut did not come back because of some "purpose," she came back because she hid her death in an oversoul, as explained by the sisters Ir Halak and Ir Anuk.
[quote]“We propose a method by which Ascendant souls can be detached and integrated into a tautological and autonomous thanatosphere, which we tentatively term an oversoul. Oversouls can be stored in a throne world as[b] a mechanism of enhanced death resilience[/b]. As a side effect, new refinements to our Deathsong may be achieved, moving us closer to a generally effective paracausal death impulse.”
Oryx brandished his sword. “Speak the Royal Tongue, or I’ll pin you up for Eir to eat.”
“[b]If we can separate our deaths from ourselves, and hide them, we will be hard to kill[/b].” (Verse 4:8 — The partition of death)[/quote]
4) Oryx, Xivu Arath, and Savathun defined themselves by their actions and their nature. Oryx was curiosity, Xivu Arath is War, and Savathun is cunning. By performing actions relating to their natures, you can summon them back from the dead (like waging war to summon Xivu Arath back to life), but this is ONLY if they did NOT die in the throne worlds.
[b]Throne worlds are how Hive Gods survive death, and they are a product of the power they amass from killing (AKA sword logic).[/b] If you die, you are reborn in your throne world. It's all just a matter of getting enough kills, and not being killed inside your own throne world. Nothing about "purpose" is needed.
[quote]Your body is gone, but you have endured. [b]Safe in the cyst universe created by your own might[/b] — your throne world.
From this day forward, Auryx, you and your sisters will each survive death — so long as you aren’t killed in your own throne. (Verse 2:7 — The Weakness Verse)[/quote]
*Clearly explains how Hive gods survive death. They are reborn in throne worlds. Throne worlds are born of the might (sword logic) of a Hive god.
English
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Thank you! I constantly have to try telling people this exact stuff about Sword and Killing Logic, it's nice to find someone else with the same views. People always mix them up and think that Killing Logic means whatever you kill makes you stronger and that Sword Logic means that if you kill something it was too weak to exist. It's nonsense but they stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the facts I present. So I hope you don't mind if I refer to this post to help explain Sword Logic to others
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Creating a "Sword Space" is a biproduct of the Sword Logic, not the Sword logic as a whole. If our knowledge of the logic is sound and practiced, we could create our very own spaces. Our knowledge is sound, but we as Guardians are not practiced in that particular art... Yet. I kill, therefore I am. The fact that I COULD cut into space is irrelevant. I don't because I either don't want to, or have not figured it out yet. OP is correct. The Sword Logic is pretty simple. I exist because I have killed the Taken King. I have killed him in numerous realms of which he called home. He is dead, and I am not. It's that easy
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I laid out the evidence as clearly as I could with text straight from Grimoire without weird interpretations and gap-filling. I suggest reread the Books of Sorrows to see specific instances where the sword logic is actually brought up, and what it actually literally written. That's all I have to say.
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Edited by JeredB: 6/26/2016 3:26:50 AMYes, Oryx and his sister use the Sword Logic to create sword spaces, yet we do not. We have taken Oryx's power, but have not learned to cut sword spaces, because we don't need to. Yes, in the Books of Sorrow (no "s") they used it very specifically for that purpose, and practiced it for over 20,000 years. To understand what we as Guardians use it for, you can't look to the books, but other things Oryx left us. Dark-Drinker: "Draw close now. Closer. Yes. Let me tell you why you should not fear Willbreaker, the sword of Oryx. Firstly: Its blade is not dulled by age. Each death it trades for life hones its edge, gives it weight and gravitas and insistence within the vortex of its own totality. Nextly: Willbreaker transcends liminality. Willbreaker demands a subjugation more diffuse than the simple snick and smash of a physical brink. It does not have to touch you to wound you. And lastly—and this is critical: To be taken in Willbreaker's grasp is to know true bliss; that is, to be simplified; that is, to be reduced to one's most basic level, shedding all higher-order thoughts of fear or duty or selfishness; that is, to feel only pain. Now do you see? Now do you understand what you've done?" [b]The Dark-Drinker card explains what the sword logic is, and the near-unlimited power one can attain through it's use[/b] Cal Frag: Insight "And armed thus with my past, and my future, and my present (which is a weapon, a weapon that takes whatever is available, a weapon bound to malice), they will mantle me, Oryx, the Taken King. They will become me and I will become them, each of us defeating the other, correcting the other, alloying ourselves into one omnipotent philosophy. Thus I will live forever. I’ll make sure." [b]Insight shows Oryx's true mastery of the Sword Logic. Knowing that he could be defeated, he figured out a way to "exist"[/b] King's Fall "You fools! You disastrous, bumbling squanderers! It's not right! Who now shall be First Navigator, Lord of Shapes, harrowed god, Taken King? Not you! You might have been Kings and Queens of the Deep! But you have toppled Oryx and you have not replaced him! There must be a strongest one. It is the architecture of these spaces." [b]Here, Toland's disgust of how we disregard the Logic entirely.[/b] This my friend, is the Sword Logic. What Oryx, Xivu and Savathun used it for was one, very specific thing.
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Where is that quote from Toland from??
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Edited by JeredB: 7/7/2016 12:26:23 PMhttp://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/kings-fall?highlight=Kings+Fall Although it's not 100% confirmed, it is strongly believed that this is Toland speaking. That he was helping us throughout the entire KF Raid
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None of what you're saying is proving that sword logic means what you think it means. These things you're quoting don't even mention the sword logic. [b]The original post proposes that sword logic is all about purpose, but there is no support for this claim,[/b] and your post does nothing to provide evidence to it. This is what the sword logic is: [b]you gain power from killing — power that is beyond mere physical law and causality.[/b] One of the quotes you use actually is an example of this; Willbreaker's growing stronger with use is because that Hive swords gain power from killing just like the Hive themselves gain power from killing. Such power gained from killing can be used to create sword spaces and cut wounds into space, but the main point is that killing = power. I never claimed that sword logic only exists to create sword spaces (which you seem pretty hung up on). [i]Please, feel free to reread my original comment if you are confused on my points.[/i] Found another quote, I don't think it will get any more clear and obvious than this. [quote]Quria deduced the sword logic. I have to kill everything, Quria resolved. Then I will be powerful. (Verse 4:9 — open your eye : go into it)[/quote] I have no clue how you or the OP could believe the sword logic is mainly about "purpose" when it's so clearly laid out in the BoS as being about amassing power from killing. Honestly, even before I read your most recent comment, I knew it would lead nowhere. I almost didn't bother reading because of it, but curiosity got the better of me, and so now this pointless argument continues. I know it sounds like I'm being mean and condescending, but I'm really not trying to be, but I'll probably not read a reply.
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Wait... We're on the same page. I thought you were insinuating that the Sword Logic's only purpose was to create a sword space. You worded it a little weird or I read it wrong. We're in he same page. OP is saying what you are, just more "eloquently"
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Edited by Astral Centipede: 6/26/2016 5:33:46 AMI'm glad you and I are on the same page, but the OP is not. The OP believes the sword logic is about purpose. He also thinks that what decides if a Hive or worm god returns from death or not is only about if we stopped their purpose or not. Nowhere does he mention that sword logic is about killing as a means of gaining power. Nowhere in his "explanation" of sword logic does he mention that Hive gods returning from death is possible because they have throne worlds (AKA sword spaces) they make with their sword logic. He claims they come back because their purpose was not stopped. He did mention getting stronger by killing with a dragon example, but that was when he was talking about killing logic, and not sword logic. I covered the killing logic and what it actually means (with evidence from BoS) in my original comment. Going to do minor edits and bolding to my original comment to make it much clearer.
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So, after re-evaluating Insight, I concede. The Sword Logic isn't purpose. Oryx used the Sword Logic to achieve HIS purpose. His purpose was to become the Final Shape, and shape the universe.
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Ok, we're not the same page. Same book, but different pages. The Touch of Malice completely negates your statement. Even though we killed him, he still lives on through his purpose. Besides, Seth Dickenson wrote the Books to be interpreted in many ways. You may not be wrong, but in the broad scheme neither is AnonPig (OP). Arguing his broad "romantic" definition is like telling a bird what the sky is. You say it's a very specific thing, but he sees it differently, and both aren't wrong.
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Edited by Astral Centipede: 6/26/2016 8:04:55 AM1) I'm fine with different interpretations as long as each is actually supported by the text, but his simply isn't. There is not a single quote linking the definition of sword logic to purpose. Accepting a definition for "sword logic" that does not account for multiple clear-as-day descriptions of "killing = more power" as equally valid would be as silly as accepting a definition for the animal classification "bird" that does not mention "wings," "beak," "feathers," or account for genetics. 2) I can kind of see how some might take the Touch of Malice as Oryx being alive through purpose, but the evidence points otherwise. Oryx hid the secrets of how to build the Touch of Malice in the Books of Sorrow; he does this because he wishes that in our quest to build the weapon, we will learn about his beliefs and his purpose. He hopes will accept them as our beliefs and purpose. He said in the quote you provided that he wishes for us to mantle him; this means to take the role and duties of him. In Oryx's mind, his role and duty is what defines him, not his actual life ([i]you don't mantle a person, you mantle a position[/i]). Oryx is dead, he is not actually literally the Touch of Malice, and he does not live inside it. This is why Oryx says "alloying ourselves into one omnipotent [b]philosophy[/b]," it's because "Oryx" sees himself an idea (a philosophy). He's like the hero of V for Vendetta. The idea of Oryx can exist, like a title, but it's not the same as the actual being Oryx surviving. If Oryx did still live inside the weapon, he wouldn't need to try to indoctrinate us into his beliefs by having us read his calcified manifesto — he could just convert us by force when we use the ToM. We are only armed with Oryx's past, present, and future (well future from the point in time when the BoS was written) because we learned about his life from the reading Oryx's words. So far this might just sound like an alternative explanation, but there is actual evidence in the BoS which Oryx confirms that we killed him for good: [quote]If my echoes are killed, and I am killed in the material world, then I will be driven back to my throne the Dreadnaught. If my Court and my throne can be beaten, [b]if I am confronted in my throne, if I am defeated there, then I will die. My work will end[/b]. (Verse 5:8 — Wormfood)[/quote] (another quote I will bring up below will back this up also) 3) How immortality actually works for Hive gods: [quote]OBLIGATIONS. Once, I permitted Oryx to kill me so that he could gain the sword logic and overcome Akka our God. (Verse 4:5 — This Love Is War)[/quote] *Sword logic = strength/power from killing. [quote]Your body is gone, but you have endured. Safe in the cyst universe created by your own might — your throne world. From this day forward, Auryx, you and your sisters will each survive death — so long as you aren’t killed in your own throne. (Verse 2:7 — The Weakness Verse)[/quote] *They are reborn in throne worlds. Throne worlds are born of the might (sword logic) of a Hive god. If you die in your on throne world, you don't come back, purpose or no purpose. We killed Oryx in his throne world (this quote aside, even Oryx said he can't come back from that). [quote]SAVATHÛN said, Auryx my brother and king, I have studied the wounds cut by the Worm our God. Also I have studied the manner of your death and return. These two things are the same, for they are predicated on death and the passage through cut spaces. Let us practice the sword logic until we are sharp. We may then cut our own wounds and step through. (Verse 3:1 — an incision)[/quote] *Sword logic (strength/power from killing) allows you to cut through space, and allows you to return from death.
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Rebuttals: 1) Again, the way the Books have been written, you can't take everything written too strongly. "Everything written is a lie". You have to see it for what it was. The journal of a god who for saw his death 2) In no definition of "mantle", does it mean to replace or take over. You wouldn't kill a buck, glue it's antlers in your head and hop through the forest. You'd mount it's head on your wall. I've never said that "Oryx is still alive because we have the ToM", only suggesting that even though he is dead, his purpose lives on through the weapon that we took from him. He didn't "give" it to us. We crafted it from the corpses of him, his general and his daughter. He's dead dead, but he "exists" though the Sword Logic
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Edited by Astral Centipede: 6/26/2016 7:47:00 PM1) In college, people are often expected to interpret works that are open to interpretation, but that does not mean they get to put forward any idea they want without evidence and get taken seriously. They are expected to support their claims about the books they read using actual text from the books as support, and the best interpretations are those best supported by said text. If your best argument is "well, nothing is really certain" rather than actual evidence, then your argument is extremely weak. Simply because you think something is open to interpretation does not mean you get away with not having a single scrap of evidence. If someone read Pride and Prejudice and told you there's a hidden meaning about sea slugs hugging sharks, you would not take their position as having merit. 2) This response genuinely makes me so sad because a simple Google search would have shown you otherwise. If you won't Google it, I will do it for you. [quote]an important role or responsibility that passes from one person to another. "the second son has now assumed his father's mantle" [i]synonyms[/i]: role, burden, onus, duty, responsibility "the mantle of leadership". (the second definition if you Google"mantle definition")[/quote] [quote]: the position of someone who has responsibility or authority. (Meriam-Webster dictionary website)[/quote] [quote][SINGULAR] the authority or responsibility connected with someone’s position, duties, or beliefs. (the position of someone who has responsibility or authority. (Macmillan Dictionary)[/quote] [quote]mantle noun (POSITION) › [C usually sing] a position of authority or responsibility: [i]He inherited the mantle of leadership at the Transit Authority in the early 1980s. (Cambridge Dictionary)[/i][/quote] Do you think a Hive god is asking for his head to be mounted? Especially when him asking for us to take his responsibilities makes a lot more sense in this context (he wanted us to learn about him so we can replace him, he says so himself)? If you're going to argue "well 'mantle' is open to interpretation," then I can use that logic and say "Oryx wants us to dip him into the Earth's mantle," and reinterpret every single word I can in equally silly ways. Yes, some words mean a lot of things, but part of being a functioning member of society is being able to discern what word means in a particular context. 3) Once again, not one single quote from the BoS can confirm the claim about "if your purpose is not stopped, than you still exist through the sword logic." Not one. If you're going to make the claim that Orx still exists "through the sword logic," back it up. I've had to explain to you twice what "mantle" means in this specific context using actual dictionary definitions to explain to you how only the position and responsibilities of Oryx still exists. I've given you two quotes from the Books of Sorrow explaining that Oryx is forever truly dead because he was killed in his own throne world, purpose or no purpose. One of the quotes was even from Oryx himself. If you still think the whole "purpose" thing is the definition of sword logic, please provide evidence that at least on par with all of the quotes I provided throughout this whole long thing. Like I said before, when asserting a position, it's not enough that the matter be open to interpretation, your position should also be backed up by evidence if you wish that view to be taken as having merit.
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Sigh... 1) I deeply apologize for not using my "University-Level English Lit" experience on a post about a fictional book, in an argument on gaming forum. I'll keep your name in mind the next time I dispute lore with you, so that I don't respond with out my computer, Ishtar-Collective and a gratuitous amount of notes 2) I apologize for my ignorance in the word "mantle". You are right, I was wrong. There are a few definitions, and in my haste this morning to reply on my way into work, I neglected to see what I didn't want to. However, I still take that sentence as more or a "trophy" kind of mantle. Oryx doesn't express what he "wants" in that paragraph, but what he expected... In all honesty you are probably right about that one too, because even Toland expected us to take his place 3) please don't insult me. I get that you are passionate about this stuff, and obviously educated, but I don't feel insulting me or OP is an appropriate response. The "lore community" is pretty small, and I like it because it has been very respectful... Otherwise you'll have no one to talk to/argue with. As I replied earlier, I admit that I was wrong. I used Insight as my main point, but after re-evaluating it, I discovered that I was wrong. Let me explain: The Sword Logic isn't clearly stated as "Purpose". Oryx used the Sword Logic for HIS purpose, which was to become the "Final Shape", and make the universe into that. He USED it for that. So, as I said, I concede. *bows out*
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I'm sorry if I was overly aggressive and mean. I didn't mean to be. Seriously, I'm sorry if I insulted you. Regardless of the context of a discussion, college experience or not, my point was that you need actual evidence to support an argument. Anyway, it was nice talking to you.
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We're good! Do you ever listen to Ghost Stories? I think you'd like the Slack.
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Wtf? A respectful intellectual argument ending respectfully? This is the Destiny forum sir I believe you are in the wrong place xD
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Yeah, I think there's a law against that... I like to live [i]dangerously[/i]
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I listened to one episode, it was the one where they interviewed the guy who wrote the Books of Sorrow. I really liked his views on a lot of things regarding writing, the role of science fiction, and how to treat biological and societal concepts (like gender) in science fiction.
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Yeah man, I enjoyed his book Traitor Baru Cormorant. I'd listen to the BoS episodes of the podcast. You might enjoy it
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