I completely agree that the maps drive the meta more than anything else, but that doesn't mean you should totally ignore usage ratios. (That's also something fixed more easily than making a bunch of new maps. The relative effort involved in doing things is often overlooked around here (and is even mentioned in the interview) and is neither good or bad, just fact/reality.) Sure, you're always going to have a bunch of snipers with modes like ToO played on maps like Widow's court but there's no question that in vanilla and even beta crucible was AR or go home and that's clearly a sign of a problem with the gun. Yes they went overboard with the nerf but that does not equate to them being fine the way they were! Same with Thorn's range and stability, or the ludicrous reach shotpackage/rangefinder shotty's had. High usage is not a sole justification for a nerf, it's a red flag, a blinking light on the dashboard telling you something needs to be checked out. If they were really as hell-bent on enforcing equal usage despite map design as you are implying sniper rifles would have been nerfed into the stone age by now. Maybe that will happen in January and I'll be happy to admit I was wrong, but maybe it will end up being a positive change. Who knows. None of us do with any certainty, I'll tell you that much.

"If its not ***up*** its down. If its not ***down*** its up."" This was one of the favorite sayings of one of my favorite professors from school. What he meant was----WHEN YOU ARE DEALING WITH A SYSTEM OUT OF BALANCE----you have to know what normal looks like in that situation, before you can make any sense out of the data you are seeing. IOW.....YES....look at usage rates. But dont' expect them to reflect equal usage, if all weapons are not equally EFFECTIVE in the situation you have created. 1. In Year One, ARs dominated because teh MAPs heavily favored close-to-short-mid-range combat-----the wheelhouse of that type of assualt rifle weapon. (IF ITS NOT UP, ITS DOWN.) The reason why other weapons were underused was that ARs did somewhat overperform in that they had on damage drop-off, and had too little recoil. Things that could have been fixed by tweaks...and BUFFS to other weapons like Pulse Rifles. (IF ITS NOT DOWN, ITS UP). Rather than the HATCHET, Bungie took to both AR base damage AND range in patch 1.1.1. 2. Same with Thorn. Simply needed its range dialed back. 3. Nothing wrong with the range of the Felwinter's LIe shotguns. Shotguns in this game (including Felwinters) have a RIDICULOUSLY short range compared to other shooters. In Titanfall their shotgun has twice the range, and all the stopping power of Felwinters....and you can run with it as a primary weapon...if you dare. But Titanfall never had a shotgun spamming problem ----despite Pilots being twice as fast and mobile as Guardians.....because the primary weapon TTK was fast enough to keep someone from simply running at you with a shotgun and closing before you can kill them. Plus the maps were big enough, open enough, and had enough vertical levels so that running around in the open with a shotgun put you at a huge disadvantage, and you'd routinely take fire from places you \simply couldn't respond to if you were running with a shotgun. NONE of this was the case-----until Year Two---- in Destiny. When was the last time someone tried to blink or slide-shotgun you on Memento or Widow's Court?? How well did it turn out for them? Not very well I'd imagine. But people were left with such a bad taste in their mouths as result of the design flaws of Year One maps, and the broken primary weaon TTK....that they still insisted that Bungie break shotguns. Whch they have. Unless you have a shotgun with a max range build, in the current meta, a shotgun is a very loud melee weapon. Because you are not likely to kill your oppoent from any range outside of arms length. Which is ABSURDLY unrealistic for a shotgun. 5. I fully expect snipers, MIDA, and TLW to be on the nerfing bloc with the next patch.....and the resulting meta to be even more broken.

[quote] 1. In Year One, ARs dominated because teh MAPs heavily favored close-to-short-mid-range combat-----the wheelhouse of that type of assualt rifle weapon. (IF ITS NOT UP, ITS DOWN.) The reason why other weapons were underused was that ARs did somewhat overperform in that they had on damage drop-off, and had too little recoil. Things that could have been fixed by tweaks...and BUFFS to other weapons like Pulse Rifles. (IF ITS NOT DOWN, ITS UP). Rather than the HATCHET, Bungie took to both AR base damage AND range in patch 1.1.1. [/quote] Not gonna argue that, even Bungie knows they went too far, but I also can't say I am surprised that the very first balance pass in a games development was an overreaction. Seen that one before. But, again, many (not you) make the leap from it was nerfed too hard to it should never have been nerfed at all. I can't even count how many posts on this topic start with the foolish proposal to put AR's exactly back to where they were on day 1 and buff everything to that level. Power creep is not the right solution. To anything. [quote]2. Same with Thorn. Simply needed its range dialed back. [/quote] I think they actually did a nice job with Thorn, it's made a comeback so obviously still works. The range was [u]not[/u] the only problem, just the most glaring one. [quote] Nothing wrong with the range of the Felwinter's LIe shotguns. Shotguns in this game (including Felwinters) have a RIDICULOUSLY short range compared to other shooters. In Titanfall their shotgun has twice the range, and all the stopping power of Felwinters....and you can run with it as a primary weapon...if you dare. But Titanfall never had a shotgun spamming problem ----despite Pilots being twice as fast and mobile as Guardians.....because the primary weapon TTK was fast enough to keep someone from simply running at you with a shotgun and closing before you can kill them. Plus the maps were big enough, open enough, and had enough vertical levels so that running around in the open with a shotgun put you at a huge disadvantage, and you'd routinely take fire from places you simply couldn't respond to if you were running with a shotgun. NONE of this was the case-----until Year Two---- in Destiny. When was the last time someone tried to blink or slide-shotgun you on Memento or Widow's Court?? How well did it turn out for them? Not very well I'd imagine. But people were left with such a bad taste in their mouths as result of the design flaws of Year One maps, and the broken primary weaon TTK....that they still insisted that Bungie break shotguns. Whch they have. Unless you have a shotgun with a max range build, in the current meta, a shotgun is a very loud melee weapon. [/quote] Thing is, making comparisons between games is misleading. For one, not ALL shooters have longer-range shotguns than Destiny so that's beside the point. Second, like we've both said, map design plays a huge role.[b] Aren't we doing almost the exact same thing you're accusing Bungie of if we say well, I want this weapon to do X and just disregard map design? [/b] Finally, I haven't played Titanfall so this may not apply, but not every game aims for the same TTK so there can be a fundamentally different design philosophy that renders any such comparison completely and utterly meaningless. And, tbh, might make certain games not for certain people. If you want a different TTK than the game developer does, maybe you need to move on to something else b/c you're honestly just never going to be happy... like those people who want to take supers out of PvP. Like WTF, why are you even playing [u]this[/u] game in the first place then? [quote]Because you are not likely to kill your oppoent from any range outside of arms length. Which is ABSURDLY unrealistic for a shotgun. [/quote] Realism? In a futuristic spaaaaaace maaaaagic shooter? [spoiler]Joking aside, realism < balance. [/spoiler] [quote] I fully expect snipers, MIDA, and TLW to be on the nerfing bloc with the next patch.....and the resulting meta to be even more broken.[/quote] TLW, maybe. Snipers, very likely. But I still don't think MIDA will be changed much... At most they might dial down the flinch but MIDA is a symptom, not the disease, and while you [i]clearly[/i] don't agree with the specific decisions they have made, I hope you can at least see that they are less prone to meganerfs - PR's are mostly still fine, for example. (Not gonna mention shotguns b/c you obviously got a thing about that)

Map design is only PART of the equation. I emphasize it, because that is the part that Bungie seems to consistently IGNORE. But how weapons fit into weapon SYSTEM as a whole is also important. Because---if you dont' consider it-----you put yourself in the position of trying to move one part of a mobile...and expecting all the other parts to stay put. Which never happens of course. 1. You can't have a long TTK in a shooter where people get to CHOOSE which weapons they fight with, and have a WIDE variety of weapons to choose from. BECAUSE---WHEN GIVEN THE CHOICE----PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS CHOOSE THE MOST EFFICIENT WEAPON FOR THE SITUATION (AND THEIR STYLE) AT THEIR DISPOSAL. The long TTK in Halo worked becasue the system FORCED you to fight with inefficient weapons, because you had to fight with whatever you had on hand. 2. You had a shotgun problem in Year One becaue the maps promoted close-combat....and after patch 1.1.1....primary weapon TTK was too long. Once anyone got within about 100 yds of in-game distance, no primary weapon in the game could kill fast enough to keep them from closing to the distance of THEIR weapon. So shotgun rushers/slide-shotgunners/blink-shotgunnesr could simply just IGNORE your primary weapon fire. Because----unless you had room to backpedal and keep them from closing----they could just run at you and spam it in your face. 3. So people picked HCs, because they were the NEXT most efficient gun once ARs weer broken. Especially at keeping shotgun rushers at bay. Good players learned how to fire accurately while backpedalling. 4. The problem of shotguns was largely fixed with TTK. BECAUSE BUNGIE RE-DESIGNED THE MAPS TO BE MORE OPEN, AND TO HAVE MORE VERTICAL LEVELS AND LONGER SIGHTLINES. So snipers became more prominent...and (imo) struck a nice balance with shotguns. Shotgun rushers started to complain, because NOW the game had a way to really PUNISH them for trying to use a shotgun as a primary weapon. So the meta became one of pulse rifles and mid-range combat...with secondary weapon usage spreading out among shotguns, snipers, and a few FRs and sidearms. But the community kept insisting that shotguns were broken and needed to be nerfed. Probably because of 3v3 and the smaller maps that Trials, Elimination and Skirmish/Salvage ***tend*** to get played on. This SHOULD have been handled by buffing ARs back up to year one levels of BASE damage (but leaving the RANGE drop-off in place) so that ARs could (once again) be effective at close range in allowing players to stand their ground and fight. But Bungie instead, opted to BREAK shotguns. 4. Now you have a HUGE coverage game at close-to-mid-range. Pulse rifles no longer reliably kill fast enough to keep high-agility hunters from closing wtih perfect-range build shotguns. ARs (other than High RoF, High stability variants) still underperform in their role as close-to-mid-range weapons..and shotguns are dangerously unpredictable as close-combat weapons. So you now have a meta where rushers still rush. They just run at you and spam TLW in your face rather than a shotgun...and you still have very few answers to that strategy. Everyone else is finding close-combat either ineffective or unpredictable....and they are backing off and fighting at range. So you are seeing more snipers...and those snipers are encroaching into mid-range....because (ONCE AGAIN) the TTK has been increased. So they have more time to fight through any primary weapon fire to get their precision shot off. 5. I don't have a "thing" for shotguns. What I have a "Thing" about...is balance...and I've seen what a well-balanced weappon system looks like and feels like....AND THIS ISN'T IT. NOT ONLY IS THIS NOT IT, ITS NOT GETTING ANY CLOSER BECAUSE BUNGIE IS GOING ABOUT IT (frankly) ass-backwards. Because instead of balancing the maps, and making sure that every weapon and style has an effective counter....and then letting the system find its OWN balance point (which is what Respawn did with Titanfall). Bungie keeps trying to thumb the scale and trying to make an unbalanced sitatuion (maps) "look" balanced. Which is just UNBALANCED in the opposite direction.

Sorry, I guess it's just a misperception but you mention shotguns a whole lot. (And use a lot of CAPS.) Buff AR's more? All for it. A lot of the other things you mention make sense as well, though you contradicted yourself a little about the maps. But, while I could go into more detail about that stuff, I'm not sure it matters. Reason being, it still really sounds like you want a significantly shorter "ideal" TTK than the people who design this game and you need to realize that's just never going to happen and move on. Nothing else we could possibly debate would get anywhere if you don't.

1. When you see me use caps....think italics. Too much time on message boards that didn't have them. 2. Didn't contradict myself. Just making a nuanced point. Not "either-or". Its "both-and". 3. The sad irony here is that the TTk doesnt' have to be "significantly shorter". The TTK in VANILLA Destiny was fast enough to promote a healthy, balanced weapons system. As long as you don't insist on breaking down shotguns to the point that they are melee weapons. You'll just never get there with where the TTK is right now. Which is why I keep saying that Bungie is going about this wrong....and will never "get there" from "here". I keep bring up shotguns because I it as a key aspect of why the meta is broken and why Bungie is having such a hard time building a sustainably balanced meta that is satisfying to paly: 1. The maps are too homogenous, and promote unidimensional play. 2. The primary weapon TTK is too long, so that special weapon users don't really have to respect primary weapon fire. 3. The shotguns play a key role in the balance of CQ combat. Break them----simply because you find them annoying----and you'll always be fighting imbalance. The solution to TLW is not to nerf the TLW. Its to buff shotguns back to where they were in patch 2.0. So that they are a legitimate threat to camping snipes, and a legitimate counter to TLW users. They aren't right now.

Those are all pretty reasonable changes but you're just going to keep banging your head against the wall if you want a TTK that's shorter than the devs want. It seems to me like they thought the TTK at the time was too fast. I could be mistaken but a lot of what they have done since certainly makes it appear so. It's not a criticism. It doesn't mean you are wrong. But it does mean that you are ultimately never going to be satisfied because it's simply not gonna happen.

...and my point is the Devs will keep banging their head against the wall of a balanced, SUSTAINABLLY DIVERSE weapons system, if they don't walk back the changes to TTK. Which is why I keep saying that Bungie has developed a sandbox/weapon system that they really don't understand. So Bungie will evenutally have to decide if this is the HILL they wish to die on. Do they want to be "right" and keep the TTK long...or do they want this game to work. Which will require them to move TTK back to where it was early in Year One. I understand what you meant. God knows I heard it from the mouth of one of the Bungie guys in the recent Planet Destiny podcast that PRs got nerfed because they though that TTK was still "too hot( fast)". Which had me grinding my teeth in frustration. Becaue the mess we have right now in the Crucible was the PREDICTABLE outcome of what they said they intended to do.

It may be, but guess what? You are gonna keep grinding those teeth and help your dentist pay for his new car. They have a vision for the type of pace they want and honestly it's nobody's business or place to tell them otherwise. To keep your sanity I suggest reframing your ideas into ones that fit in that worldview because you're stuck with it. [i]That's[/i] the fundamental framework everything will be built on, not maps or even space magic. You can only adapt what you can change (maps and the like) to make what you can't (the basic principles of the game) work. Bottom line. Otherwise you may as well become one of those misguided people who think supers should be removed from PvP. If that's the game you want to play, well... you bought the wrong one.

NO, I'm not stuck with anything. Because I don't HAVE to play this game...and if the weapon system gets too wonky...I won't...and other people will stop playing the game. That's my plan for saving my sanity. The Division is going to be coming out in three months, and for the first time Destiny will have a game that is a DIRECT competititor. Which is why I said that Bungie needs to decide if this is the HIll that they wish to die on. Because Dead Right is just as dead as Dead Wrong. ...and right now they are heading at breakneck speed towards "Dead Right". But what happens when you get very smart people...is that they sometimes think that they are not only the smartest person in the room...but the smartest person that has ever been in ANY room. So that the rules and limitations that used to apply to everyone else, don't apply to them. That the faster TTKs that other weapons systems like this have been required to use, don't apply to them and their creation. Just that htey other guys werent' smart enough to solve the problem. Which is right about the time it all goes over a cliff....

Heya Kelly... I'm gonna bounce this off you cause you seem to have a long time of gaming experience behind you, and reading your responses made me think of this. When they discussed Fusion Rifles originally pre-game being designed with a "steady beam that you had to follow your target", that example with your mentioning of the original maps being designed for "one kind" of meta has given me the impression not only are you correct... But that also the maps were designed with a pre-determined goal for weapons that AFTER maps were designed the weapons changed and didn't meet the maps play style. So here's the question. If Bungie is so out of whack between maps and the state of weapon balance, couldn't a buffer be created by adding a completely NEW damage stat to weapons via a bar that determines every weapons "Damage ability to shields"? PVE Bungie lessened elemental burns in nightfalls by one third for players, but left AI Elemental Burns at 3/3. So, Bungie created a PVE buffer for weapons during nightfalls. Example: Pvp shields take even more damage from one kind of shotgun round, but the player takes LESS from that shotgun round and vice versa. In other words, players would need to decide a balance between each weapons shield removal damage and damage to the player without their shield via the weapons and perks they've chosen. An added stat, that is designed specifically to force either longer engagements via shield removal or TTK or a fine balance between both. If you can follow what I'm talking about... Which I think you can.

I can follow...and its an interesting idea. BUT....I think it suffers from having put more thought into solving the problem than Bungie put into CREATING the problem. Which can sometimes create additional problems. IMO, What's wrong with The Crucible is a simple problem with a **relatively** simple fix. 1. Bungie has created a weapon system and a sandbox in The Crucible that they simply don't really understand. 2. Bungie wants to have this sandbox play and feel like Halo in most ways, but fails to appreciate the fact that this weapon system will NEVER play like Halo. At least in any healthy, sustainable fashion. 3. As a result of wanting it to play like Halo, a terminally flawed notion of "balance" is being forced on the system. Think of it this way. One of my favorite books from college defined a "just society" as one that insured Equality of Opportunity, but did not inforce Equality of Outcome. The author made this distinction because he realized that Equal Opportunity only produced Equal Outcomes....WHEN EVERYTHING ELSE IS ALSO EQUAL. But human beings and human lives are never TRULY equal. So justice is more about dealing humanely with our differences from one another....and if you try to FORCE people to experience equal outcomes....you actually create a different (Communist) form of tyranny. That is the problem that Bungie has basically run into. Instead of creating Equal Opportunity they are trying to enforce Equal Outcome on the system. IOW, instead of making sure that every weapon in the game has a counter...and that there's a healthy balance between primary weapons and secondary weapons...and that you can find a way to play any playstyle on any map...then letting the system find its own balance point. Bungie is instead trying to force "Equal Usage" on a system that is not "equal". So instead of balance, you get an unbalanced system because Bungie is putting its thumb on the scale. I hate to keep bringing up Titanfall....but I do it because its a very useful example of a very similar weapon system that is (or was when I was playing it) beautifully balanced (as balanced as any system like this will ever be)....and they did it by pretty much doing the opposite of everything Bungie is trying to do. Respawn made sure to balance the MAP, and make sure that you can fight any way you want on any map. They made sure that every weapon in the game had an effective counter. They made sure that every advantage was counterbalanced by a disadvantage. Then they turned you lose...and let the system find its own balance point. ...and it looked a LOT like the meta of Vanilla Destiny before Bungie started thumbing the scale. Most people played carbines (ARs) not because they were OP....but because they were the most versatile weapon. Competitive in any fight....but only dominate in a very narrow range. People who strictly played run-and-gun picked SMGs. People who liked more ranged combat picked BFRs or semi-auto rifles. Shotguns and snipers were powerful weapons....but ones of limited usefulness BY WAY OF DESIGN OF THE MAPS. People with shotguns were limited to playing inside of buildings where they didn't have to worry about having ranged combat forced on them. Snipers largely stuck to rooftops and other high places....lest they die quickly from having close-combat forced on them. Primary weapon TTKs were brisk...so that anyone with a CQC weapon couldn't neutralize their disadvantage by simply bull-rushing you. IOW....Respawn did the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Bungie is trying to do. Respawn wound up with system that was universally praised as being well-balanced. Bungie...has a mess on their hands.

I got ya. Instead of adding a substandard layer of adjustments to an already layered cake, the foundation is what worked the best and anything 5 or 6 layers up is too convoluted at this juncture. Steve Fakuda of Respawn did a fine job in balance. I've never played such a balanced game, minus the smart pistol I find that concept kinda silly. Overall Titanfall was set to bring a new standard at the beginning of a new generation of consoles [b]and[/b] gaming. In the balance category... Titanfall was and still is exceptionally a great standard. As far as content for Titanfall as I'm a mech fan (Steel battalion line of contact, armored core series [b]all[/b], Robotech Xbox, Mech Assault on Tandy PC, Mech Warrior, Battletech, Etc etc...) my preference for OPTIONS and Customization are nevertheless fully satiated. Steve Fakuda established balance and understandably did not "water down and over complicate" the games ingredients. Hence the lack of additional Titans or weaponry. Alan Kertz of Dice, opposite end of the spectrum in contrast. Too much too many and too over saturated with options that literally required a life support system of constant patches. The largest scale of patches ever witnessed by me in an online MMO of oversaturated balance requirements was Trion worlds 188 weapon balance patches in 12 months. While Destinys core balance is broken, sometimes "quality is better over quantity ". And if the Map designers were responsible for weapons being balanced, or weapon balance designers were responsible for map design we could have had a better result. This appears as if the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and one of those hands doesn't seem to know what it's doing itself, let alone care. Thanks for your input. Simply put, I have a lot of appreciation for feedback that contributes to discussion that is beyond "Git gud or get wrecked" in forum discussions. Peace. Hope your gaming is going well.

[quote]Instead of adding a substandard layer of adjustments to an already layered cake, the foundation is what worked the best and anything 5 or 6 layers up is too convoluted at this juncture[/quote] Precisely. You got it. :)

Makes me want them to turn off ALL weapon patch adjustments for a week. Edit: I know that's not realistic. LOL

Not realiistic. But I'd LOVE to see what this game would look like if you reset every weapon (except PRs) back to Day One base damage levels...and just left the range drop-offs in place...... ...then put ALL the maps into the Year Two playlist. So you have a nice blend of both CQ and mid-range maps. I'm betting that you'd wind up with a better meta than the one we have right now.

I agree partially. My thoughts go further. They aren't interested in balance as you or I understand them. They want everyone to use all their guns. They intentionally overpower, or create an environment of overpower, to a weapon archetype every patch. They intend for people to overuse. They intend to give every weapon and character class "their day in the sun" (Bungie has stated this several times). There is no attempt at true balance.

Which is even worse. Because this current meta is just downright distasteful. As mid-range player, the current meta is so out of balance, that it makes the smaller maps really hard to play. Because none of the games weapons (except TLW) have any real killing power in PvP, at the distances those maps force you to play.

You remember wrong. The problem has always been that the dominating weapons exceeded their intended range. ARs were simply better than anything else in Vanilla, at every range. Then HCs did that. Then PRs did that. In terms of secondaries we saw this with FRs, then shotguns and now snipers.

You're correct....but that is seperate conversation. Those were mechanical problems with the game's engine...that Bungie ultimately (imo) has corrected. In the background----and now in the foreground----has always been this problem of a very flawed notion of what "balance" is. If Bungie had been operating with a better model of "balance", the problems of the Year One (vanilla) weapons system would have been a pretty simple fix. 1. Dial back the exotic perks of Suros Regime. 2. Institute a range drop off for all weapons except Scouts and Snipers. 3. Buff the damage and stability of PRs. Voila. You have----instead of the mess we have right now----a weapon system that looks VERY similar to that of Titanfall. With each weapon class having its own clearly defined range envelope, AND there being a fast enough TTK such that there is a healthy degree of counterbalance between the weapon classes. I played IB last night....and I can see why people are demanding that TLW be nerfed. The weapon isn't OP....but it is CLEARLY out of control and out of balance with the rest of the weapon system. BECAUSE BUNGIE HAS BROKEN EVERY OTHER CLOSE-RANGE WEAPON IN THE GAME. Once someone with the TLW gets to near-side of mid-range, NO other weapon in the game right now can kill fast enough to stand up to it in a 1v1 fight. So people who carry it just don't have to respect your weapon fire. They just charge right in to the optimal range of their weapon....and unload it on you. Confident that----unless you have your super or heavy ammo---that there's really not a damn thing you can do about it in the current meta. THIS is where Bungies notions of "equal usage as balance" have gotten us.

I won't disagree for once. The way Bungie handled the balancing as a whole was a atrocious. Weapons need a certain identity for certain ranges, however HC and PRs have to be able to compete with ARs at closer ranges. Simply because ARs are braindead to use. Point, shoot, pray. Someone skilled with a HC or PRs should not get outgunned by an AR by default. AR TTK has to be higher to compensation for the ease use. Ignoring that nerfing whole classes, not balancing for 8 months, or going batshit crazy on shotguns were absolutely ridiculous and impossible to understand decisions, Bungie consistently upped TTK on absolutely every primary, except for SRs. At least concerning that, they are consistent (and with them overdoing the whole nerfing thing). Still can't comment on Titanfall though.