Look I'm not pretending to be anything, I simply identify with the essence of being female, more than I do being male. What does this mean? I like to wear dresses, I like to make myself pretty sure but its so much more than that. Its how i interact with others and treat others as a woman would more than how a man would. Gender is a deeply rooted instinct that determines how we act, how we treat people, and how our thought processes work. This is how social gender roles came about, from how women and men treated each other. Does this means all women must stay home and teach the kids? No what it means is men and women do and always will have characteristics that make them one or the other. Basic things like being the attractor and the more emotionally in tune and passive are deeply rooted in being a woman. Just like men are the seekers and are more physical and assertive with matters. This has been the relationship between the genders since the dawn of civilization. I'm not pretending to be anything, I know who I am and what I was born as, I'm being myself by not trying to live like a man. I cant do that, its stressful and extremely anxiety producing to even try. By living as what I feel i am and not what society thinks i should be is indeed me being myself. If I were to tell you I'm a man and I'm happy about it, then I'd be pretending. Why is me taking hormones and putting on a dress and some makeup to feel good about how I feel pretending? Its being closer to who I truly am as a person. But that's pretending to you....making yourself closer to your true persona is somehow pretending to you. And its not just dress up like you have voiced clearly. If it was I would not be taking these hormones to make me feel OK with myself and who I am. These hormones have done wonders for me, I'm not chronically depressed anymore, i can think clearly and be a better person as a result. Estrogen has saved my damn life, and yet I'm just pretending.... The whole hormones thing makes me think sex and gender have to be separate entities. If they weren't, putting estrogen in me and blocking testosterone would not yield the results it does. Something in my brain makes me function and run better on the female hormone. This shouldn't be if sex and gender were intertwined. Its why men like Alan Turing did what he did. He was convicted of being homosexual, the punishment? Inject him with the female hormone estrogen, pretty much the exact same thing as me. The difference? He spiraled into deep deep depression and eventually killed himself. He was a "cis" man his mind was meant to run on testosterone and giving him estrogen only made him feel worse. Contrary to trans people who feel SO much better on their hormones. I'm not pretending to be a biological woman I know I will never be that, I'm just doing what I have seen is proven to work for people like me. Say we pretend all you want but the fact is we are being ourselves, and not pretending we can live as the sex we were born into. Denying who you are is pretending.

Hey good for you. My opinion remains that you are biologically male, regardless of your behavior or anything else. I'll treat ya how you want to be treated. In fact, I may not even be able to tell, but if we were to discuss it face to face my opinion would stay the same. Which is more important to you, the way you're treated or my personal opinion on the matter?

And I accept that I am, trans people who don't are honestly just being delusional. What's important to me is how I'm treated yes, but also how people in general view us, because I care more about how future people have to deal with this than how I have to. I just want a trans kids life in the future to be easier than mine is. And talking to people about it and showing my experience of it does do wonders.

Everybody has one thing don't they. And here I figured you'd not be so abrasive on such a subject.

Just because I think their decisons dont change anything about what they are, doesn't mean I don't give them common decency and respect their wishes to be called whatever the hell they character they are that day.

And yet when they're not around suddenly you talk a little more open. It's not called respect when you put a mask on up front but as soon as you're facing the other way you take it off to run your mouth. That's being two faced and spineless. The wiring of a human brain is complex. By any chance, have you ever talked to trans person before? Ever asked them about their feelings about things? Or are we going off experienceless judgement here?

OK then pick. Either I give them common decency and respect like I do everyone to their face, and keep my disagreements with their choices to myself and discussions of the actual topic, or I give them garbage every time I knowingly interact with them. Which one do you prefer?

Let's go with option three! Drop some intrigue on the subject and do a little a research! You never answered my question. Which was important. Have you ever conversed with a trans-person before? Ever asked them about their viewpoint on things? Ever asked them about that little impulse in their head that ticks at all hours and makes them feel incorrect and wrong? And, if you're thinking about chastizing me about not answering your question? I did. We're going down road number three here. Let's have a conversation instead of backing off and changing the subject shall we?

Yes I have talked to them, rather in depth too. It found it intriguing to pick their brain. Hence my position; they are just conforming to the social stereotype that best expresses how they feel, compared to how they they think they are supposed to feel. If gender is tied to sex then your behavior can't change it, if it isn't then its an arbitrary term. Either way the end result is your behavior doesn't change what you are.

There's no real "social stereotype" if we're talking that. That's bullshit. I'd call it social confinement. On an evolutionary standpoint, because of our sex, our biology, neurology, chemical make-ups, and our roles in nature, mixed in with randomness that is self awareness, we've developed social confinements because we're still bound by said evolutionary parameters. Old instincts. So, in some measure gender is tied to sex because of our older instincts. But it's not an absolute. Case and point. People who don't identify with their gender. Some people who don't even register or particularily care about their gender or sex, or others and their type. I wouldn't say it's paying pretend. And it's not conforming to some stereotype because biologically, we're partially built to conform to roles of survival based on our sex. And therefore, their brain is wired to the opposite sex. The brain always calls the shots. Not the body. Besides. If you factor the rate of technology growth based around the human body, give or take, a few decades, I wouldn't be surprised if entire sex conversions would be possible on a complete biological level. And at that point, the "playing pretend" excuse of yours will be moot.

No it will still be playing pretend as the individual would still be trying to force their biology to be something it isn't.

Please. Are you being serious right now? That's on par with saying, "But god made you that way." Britton. Let's say you have a heart failure right now. Your heart is completely bunk and shot. A doctor, cuts open your body, surgically rips your heart out, sticks a new one in from a donor who is dead, and your body remains alive because of it. Are you pretending to be alive and force your biology to be something that it no longer should be? How about if you lost an arm? And they replaced it with a roboticised prosthetic? Are you pretending to have an arm when right there, you have a substitue that can act and move like an arm? Oh but no, you don't have the biological components anymore so it doesn't count. You're just pretending. You realize that our atomic structure, after one year, is completely redispersed and re-intergrated into other things? Is every single atom that makes you who you are, merely pretending to be a replica of the original you? A replica or fake likeness to the structure it was replacing? Britton. How about this. Next time you're hurt or injured. Apply your logic on how you view trans-gendered people to yourself. When the doc wants to give you medication? When they want to stitch up a bad cut or put metal in your body to help mend a broken bone? Refuse them. Because you're forcing your biology to be something it currently isn't.

Fixing ailments is not at all related. Your grasping at straws by trying to say i wouldn't be classified as the human species if i get injured. Which is absurd. Your born the way you are, your [b][i]behavior and cosmetic suregeries [u]doesn't change how you are born.[/u][/i][/b] if I was born a human and I get prostheitc I'm still human. I'm a man and I get my leg blown off and I get it replaced I still fall under the same basic defintions that I did when I was born. Your point is terrible, and doesn't even apply at all. I've already stated I won't treat trans people negatively because everyone deserves common decency until that individual shows otherwise. So your beating a dead horse to change my mind about something that isn't even clearly defined in our own society.

"Fixing ailments is not at all related." For one thing, most docs consider someone with trans mental tendancies up for some degree of medical changes. It's an ailment and therefore the operations or steps taken to change somebody relieve them of that ailment. So it has perfect relivancy here and you know it. And I did not insinuate that you wouldn't be classified as human. Never even close. "[u]behavior[/u] and cosmetic suregeries doesn't change how you are born." Titles and labels. I love them. Okay, so, then therefore, let's say a kid is born. And he turns out to be a rotten -blam!-ing kid. He was born that way, and for a long time, he's an asshole. But then, one day, he changes. He starts to turn around. He starts acting decent. To the point that you wouldn't call him an asshole anymore. Does that change his past? Does that change the way he was born and brought up? No. And you're absolutely correct. You can't forget your point of origin. You cannot forget, or discard where you came from, and how. But, you move on. You change, evolve, grow, and adapt. Because that kid was previously an asshole, are you going to label him as such silently and proclaim that he's pretending because of what he originiated as? Because your logic with trans-gendered people could be apllied to a lot of things and frankly, it looks -blam!-ing retarded everywhere else you apply it. And that's the point I'm trying to make. Your stance is backwards. It's pointless. If I were to take that stance on any other damn thing out there, people would call me a lunatic. In fact, in -blam!-ing fact, if I took your stance, and applied it to a few ailments of my own, I would not be alive right now. I'd be dead. I would not be sitting here, talking to you, right now. Do you know what your stance creates? Negativity. It's passive aggressive. You may not outwardly speak against a trans person to their face. But taking such a stance behind their back is not any form of respect or decency. And it promotes a shitty attitude. So the reason I am talking to you, is because you, supposedly, have a head on you. In your life, you're going to influence people when you talk to them. And there's a glaring flaw in your belief. Just that one. Trans-genderism isn't cleary defined and it may fall into many complex categories. And if we take your logic on this one category, and apply it to the categories it has relevance in? It doesn't hold up or make any sane sort of sense. You are right. You can't disregard your origins. But you can change them. You can change what you were, previously, to what you are, right now. Look at a picture of yourself as a kid. You were a child then. And now you're an adult. Am I going to call you a child for the rest of your life because you started out as a baby? No. I'm going to call you by the title you exhibit, right now. And I'm not going to say behind your back that you're a child pretending to be an adult. The same should be applied to a trans-gendered person. They started out as a male, or female. Back then. And now? Time has changed them. That, Britton, is called progress. Your line of thought on this issue inhibits that. And if anybody here were to adopt your view, or you were to teach it to your kids, it would start a negative trend. We don't need more stupid trivial bullshit and hate in the world. Least of all, disguised behind a face of acceptance but almost coming off as condescending when people's backs are turned. That's my two cents. Do with that as you please.

Firstly, holy wall of text. [quote]"Fixing ailments is not at all related." For one thing, most docs consider someone with trans mental tendancies up for some degree of medical changes. It's an ailment and therefore the operations or steps taken to change somebody relieve them of that ailment. So it has perfect relivancy here and you know it.[/quote] Relevancy* and no, it doesn't. Ailment implies its detrimental. So unless your position is that being transgender is a sickness your point is invalid. [quote]And I did not insinuate that you wouldn't be classified as human. Never even close. "[u]behavior[/u] and cosmetic suregeries doesn't change how you are born." Titles and labels. I love them. Okay, so, then therefore, let's say a kid is born. And he turns out to be a rotten -blam!-ing kid. He was born that way, and for a long time, he's an asshole. But then, one day, he changes. He starts to turn around. He starts acting decent. To the point that you wouldn't call him an asshole anymore. Does that change his past? Does that change the way he was born and brought up? No. And you're absolutely correct. You can't forget your point of origin. You cannot forget, or discard where you came from, and how. But, you move on. You change, evolve, grow, and adapt. Because that kid was previously an asshole, are you going to label him as such silently and proclaim that he's pretending because of what he originiated as? Because your logic with trans-gendered people could be apllied to a lot of things and frankly, it looks -blam!-ing retarded everywhere else you apply it. And that's the point I'm trying to make.[/quote] I see your point, but the term asshole is subjective. What my family thinks is just being funny, you may consider being an asshole. It's subjective, being male or female isn't. [quote]Your stance is backwards. It's pointless. If I were to take that stance on any other damn thing out there, people would call me a lunatic. In fact, in -blam!-ing fact, if I took your stance, and applied it to a few ailments of my own, I would not be alive right now. I'd be dead. I would not be sitting here, talking to you, right now.[/quote] If your personal shortcomings cannot accommodate my outlook tough shit. [quote]Do you know what your stance creates? Negativity. It's passive aggressive. You may not outwardly speak against a trans person to their face. But taking such a stance behind their back is not any form of respect or decency. And it promotes a shitty attitude. So the reason I am talking to you, is because you, supposedly, have a head on you. In your life, you're going to influence people when you talk to them. And there's a glaring flaw in your belief. Just that one. Trans-genderism isn't cleary defined and it may fall into many complex categories. And if we take your logic on this one category, and apply it to the categories it has relevance in? It doesn't hold up or make any sane sort of sense.[/quote] That's the problem, everything doesn't need to work universally. What I think for one issue is probably not going to be the same for another. When people realize there is no universal answer for everything and start looking at things case by case, we'll be better off. [quote]You are right. You can't disregard your origins. But you can change them. You can change what you were, previously, to what you are, right now.[/quote] No, you cannot change your origins. You can make your present different from them absolutely, but the present doesn't dictate the past (unless your talking about quantum mechanics lol) [quote]Look at a picture of yourself as a kid. You were a child then. And now you're an adult. Am I going to call you a child for the rest of your life because you started out as a baby? No. I'm going to call you by the title you exhibit, right now. And I'm not going to say behind your back that you're a child pretending to be an adult.[/quote] Well you could, but that's up to you. But you don't call someone a child once their grown because that is a description of a person's stage in life. Not the same as changing genders. [quote]The same should be applied to a trans-gendered person. They started out as a male, or female. Back then. And now? Time has changed them. That, Britton, is called progress.[/quote] No they changed themselves. That's not progress, its appeasement. [quote]Your line of thought on this issue inhibits that. And if anybody here were to adopt your view, or you were to teach it to your kids, it would start a negative trend. We don't need more stupid trivial bullshit and hate in the world. Least of all, disguised behind a face of acceptance but almost coming off as condescending when people's backs are turned. That's my two cents. Do with that as you please.[/quote] Reported [spoiler]jk[/spoiler]

please stop asserting that transgenders are playing pretend. you've made it clear that you have no interest in trying to understand transgenders.

They clearly are. Conforming to one stereotype over another somehow males them feel better, so they do, instead of just being themselves.

[quote]instead of just being themselves.[/quote]but that's exactly what they're doing - being themselves.

No, they are conforming to a stereotype they think accurately portrays them.

gender is a real thing that exists outside of simple social stereotypes. transgender brains [b]actually [/b]don't "fit" their biological sex.

Considering your argument is that gender is multifaceted and up to the individual, how can a person be transgender unless they are conforming to societies definitions of it, instead of their own?