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Edited by Father Giliam:
6/14/2015 2:26:38 PM
8
Well written, but starts off very flawed with a misunderstanding on what "overpowered" is.
Just because something can be beat by skill, does not mean it is suddenly not overpowered. Overpowered means a weapon/item/ability in a game is so powerful that they close skill gaps by themselves and to not use those weapons/items/ability puts you at a disadvantage.
Basically look at it this way: If 2 players are exactly at the same skill level (impossible I know) and 1 of those players uses a certain weapon while the other does not. If the person using that weapon is near gaurenteed to win that fight because of said weapon, then it is overpowered (can be somewhat gray area due to situational weapons but generally true). There are several weapons that do this in Destiny.
You also mention that it is alright that there are clear cut top guns. Outside of the Gjallarhorn, Bungie has said this is not what they want. You also mention Halo as an example to support this. However, Destiny and Halo work very differently. While it is true the BR was the best weapon in pretty much every situation, the difference is every player had access to this weapon either because they started with it (Halo 2) or it was a weapon laying around (Halo 3). In Destiny you are not given weapons at the start of the match nor do you find weapons around the map (special ammo and heavy ammo yes). This creates an imbalance.
In the end you can't please everyone but to act as though things are fine as is would be ignoring the problem. I'm not saying to nerf these things into oblivion (hell, the Last Word needs a PvE buff) like they did with autos, they are just seriously in need of a small rebalance (and fix in the case of Thorn and Last Word as they both have bugs that make them unintentionally more powerful).
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Edited by Knight Raime: 6/14/2015 2:37:41 PMFirst thank you for the sensible post. I appreciate it. 1) I can agree my deffinition of OP isn't the same for everyone. But it still fits the bill. In general it means that said item can't be beat or is near impossible to beat. We should both be able to agree that no gun like that exists currently in destiny. 2) More or less. Kind of fitting their words to make your statement. Bungie said they didn't want exotics to be the best options. they wanted other weapons to be useful. And as you can see there are other weapons that can match exotics in pvp quite easily. I can think of a few examples. both the IB scout and the scholar scout can kill faster then MIDA multitool whilst IB scout can had third eye too. There are quite a few pulse rifles that can 2 burst just like red death can. and both timur's lash and ill will can 2 shot just like the exotics can. I can say that because of the exotic perks exotics in general have an edge. But there are many many legendaries that can compete and beat exotics in pvp. SO I don't see an issue. 3) By now most people should have at least one of the designated god guns. and if it's true that IB/trials are nothing but these god guns then there is no weapon edge. at least in those games. EDIT: since you made one. I'm not saying the bugs on both guns shouldn't be fixed or that autos shouldn't get buffed. Sorry if it came off that way. I do think pvp can improve. Just not in the way most suggest.
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Edited by Father Giliam: 6/14/2015 3:11:26 PM#1(and #2) True, no gun is unbeatable. But again, there are clear cut weapons/weapon types that are better than others. And as Bungie has shown in the past, they do not want this to be the case. Examples: Mythoclast. At the launch of Hard Mode VoG, this thing was insane and very limited in number. While skill could still overcome this (hell, even back then people were talking about how The Last Word could go toe to toe with it), Bungie saw fit to nerf the gun. While still a powerful contender (and still is after ANOTHER nerf), people settled down about it. Another example, autos. They saw that the majority of players used autos in Pv (especially the Suros, rarely deviating away from these in most cases. Again, they saw fit to change this. Based on these, among other instances, they clearly don't want a few select guns or a class of gun to just dominate PvP. #3 Entirely untrue and an unfair assumption. New players are consitently joining, some players are using lower level characters, and some just havent gotten lucky. This is how the RNG itself can imbalance things.
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Yeah. launch mythoclast was overpowered. but it's pretty fair now I think. At this point we will just have to agree that we took bungies words differently. I took it as they wanted other guns to be viable in all activities (and they are imo) and it sounds like you took it as they didn't want any weapon to have an advantage against others. Correct me if I'm hearing you wrong. I still feel auto's got nerfed excessively for no reason. I can justify all the nerfs aside from the straight damage ones. those should be reversed. And true. New players don't have those guns. But they do have a fast track way to 32 and vendor weapons can be re rolled into competing guns. So I don't feel like they are at a huge disadvantage.
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Yea, you did misunderstand me, its alright though. I'm not saying they want all weapons to perform equally, they wanted them to perform well in their specific areas that they are best at, but do not want specific weapons to be the clear cut choice in their respective class (and in a few cases outperforming weapons outside of their class in situations they shouldn't be) for all situations. And I do agree the auto nerfs were too much. I think they should give them the shotgun treatment (although increase the base damage in all cases first) by increasing their damage vs non-guardian enemies.
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Ah. Then our opinions differ on how much "better" the exotics are compared to top tier legendary rolls. That would be nice. But I hope they get a damage buff in pvp as well. Just enough that they can actually compete damage wise against scouts and pulses.
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Edited by Father Giliam: 6/14/2015 3:28:36 PMThats what I meant about the base damage increase. First increase the base damage of the autos a bit, then stack on some non-guardian damage buffs.
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Oh haha. my bad man. I've been up for almost 24 hours now >_<
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[quote]Well written, but starts off very flawed with a misunderstanding on what "overpowered" is. Just because something can be beat by skill, does not mean it is suddenly not overpowered. Overpowered means a weapon/item/ability in a game is so powerful that they close skill gaps by themselves and to not use those weapons/items/ability puts you at a disadvantage. Basically look at it this way: If 2 players are exactly at the same skill level (impossible I know) and 1 of those players uses a certain weapon while the other does not. If the person using that weapon is near gaurenteed to win that fight because of said weapon, then it is overpowered (can be somewhat gray area due to situational weapons but generally true). There are several weapons that do this in Destiny. You also mention that it is alright that there are clear cut top guns. Outside of the Gjallarhorn, Bungie has said this is not what they want. You also mention Halo as an example to support this. However, Destiny and Halo work very differently. While it is true the BR was the best weapon in pretty much every situation, the difference is every player had access to this weapon either because they started with it (Halo 2) or it was a weapon laying around (Halo 3). In Destiny you are not given weapons at the start of the match nor do you find weapons around the map (special ammo and heavy ammo yes). This creates an imbalance. In the end you can't please everyone but to act as though things are fine as is would be ignoring the problem. I'm not saying to nerf these things into oblivion (hell, the Last Word needs a PvE buff) like they did with autos, they are just seriously in need of a small rebalance (and fix in the case of Thorn and Last Word as they both have bugs that make them unintentionally more powerful).[/quote] [b]A million times this. You are exactly right.[/b]
