Thanks for the reply. It's hard for me to answer point by point on the phone but you failed to answer my original question of how preordering effects any of the issues people bring up. To illustrate my point lets use some numbers from the release of Assassin's Creed Unity as an example. http://www.vgchartz.com/preorders/41952/USA/ A week before release it had about 400,000 preorders. It's sold, lets say, 8 million copies since release. 8 million isn't a wild guess. It's based on the combined total of Rogue/Unity sold and is a nice number for mathematics sake. If you look at the preorders for Rogue I don't think it's far off. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/139832-Assassins-Creed-Unity-and-Rogue-Sold-10-Million-Copies My point with the numbers is that 5% of people preordered that "broken" game and 95% of people bought it after it was released (and reviewed and known to be broken). [b]I agree with you that broken, rushed games are a problem.[/b] I don't agree with preordering being a part of that problem or boycotting preordering a solution (even if one could realistically end the practice of preordering). How would 5% fewer sales before the game is released effect anything? What % of those 5% do you think would decide to not buy the game after reading reviews (my guess close to 0)? I think it's pretty clear that preorders have a miniscule effect on total sales (the number they really care about). And my point about movies isn't just that people happily go into them blind (essentially preordered). It's also about having a wide variety of movies of all shapes, sizes and levels of awesome and terrible. Why do you care if over hyped garbage is released? DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE! Just buy the good games and let... casuals be casuals? Since I used Assassin's Creed in my example above I'll use it again. I convinced my brother to buy a PS4 this week so we could play Farcry 4 and whatever together. Without looking at reviews or asking me he bought Assassin's Creed Unity. Why? Because he liked the other ones and is continuing the (pretty whack and confusing now) story. The point is reviews, scores, brokeness and even his own brother did nothing to influence his decision. He bought it because it's an Assassin's Creed game. I'll finish with saying it's awesome when a company makes a gem of a game like GTA V. You just can't hold all games to that high of a standard. It's just not realistic. It's especially unrealistic to try to hold games that are on a yearly release cycle to... any kind of standard. I don't like that they do it any more than you do. It's a toss up. You get winners like AC: Black Flag and loosers like Unity. My advice, stay away from the heavily marketed and hyped games and focus on the low key ones that will be released when they're done (instead of in time for christmas). After looking up the numbers I REALLY can't see preordering as being a problem...

[quote]Thanks for the reply. It's hard for me to answer point by point on the phone but you failed to answer my original question of how preordering effects any of the issues people bring up.[/quote] What's the question then? [quote]To illustrate my point lets use some numbers from the release of Assassin's Creed Unity as an example. http://www.vgchartz.com/preorders/41952/USA/ A week before release it had about 400,000 preorders. It's sold, lets say, 8 million copies since release. 8 million isn't a wild guess. It's based on the combined total of Rogue/Unity sold and is a nice number for mathematics sake. If you look at the preorders for Rogue I don't think it's far off. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/139832-Assassins-Creed-Unity-and-Rogue-Sold-10-Million-Copies My point with the numbers is that 5% of people preordered that "broken" game and 95% of people bought it after it was released (and reviewed and known to be broken). [b]I agree with you that broken, rushed games are a problem.[/b] I don't agree with preordering being a part of that problem or boycotting preordering a solution (even if one could realistically end the practice of preordering). How would 5% fewer sales before the game is released effect anything? What % of those 5% do you think would decide to not buy the game after reading reviews (my guess close to 0)? I think it's pretty clear that preorders have a miniscule effect on total sales (the number they really care about).[/quote] Even if only the pre-orders were about 400,000 copies it still gave the developer enough money to satisfy. And thanks to those pre-orders the rest of the people who bought the game without a pre-order got in exchange a buggy game that was technically rushed to fill the quota because the devs couldn't fix a few bugs in-game. Which forced a huge day one patch on the game. Not matter how miniscule the pre-order numbers are, their influence in the developer is so much that most of the time it makes them in a way "greedy and lazy". Sure every company is in it for the money but it's not fair to sit back and release an incomplete game and shit on the consumer who trusted them with their money. [quote]And my point about movies isn't just that people happily go into them blind (essentially preordered). It's also about having a wide variety of movies of all shapes, sizes and levels of awesome and terrible.[/quote] Is still doesn't have to do anything with videogames, movies and videogames have very distinct ways to present themselves to build hype. Avenger's Age of ultron for example as for right now has only released two official trailers (which were enough to satisfy the audience) had a cover story in the Empire magazine and during this month has released a huge amount of merchandise to promote the film. Since it's a movie it needs to keep itself from showing to much, something all Marvel movies have done successfully to attract audiences. Wether the film ends up being great or not it still didn't warrant a pre-order to keep the consumer hyped, after all a movie ticket costs way less than a videogame, and blu-rays cost like $20 bucks for the movie with special features. Videogames on the other hand require more than merchandise and a few cinematic trailers to promote themselves, they need to show gameplay and other mechanics to show the consumer how it works, look at the order 1886 for example which just released, the developers confirm they are looking for a "cinematic experience" yet they don't clarify that the game is most of the time a click game. They show "real" gameplay videos which peeked interest in the audience, making people to start pre-ordering the game just by assuming it's 20 hours long and has plenty of gameplay. Now the game was in development for 4 years and in those four years how could they just made a QTE fest game with almost no gameplay. Yet people pre-ordered by trusting the developer and it seemed they didn't deliver. [quote]Why do you care if over hyped garbage is released? DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE![/quote] Hype is a two-way scenario, hype is needed to build up excitement for any form of entertainment, let's say I'm hosting a giant 20 vs. 20 paintball battle, everyone is interested but not excited, i need to build hype for them to start getting excited, which leads me with a bigger responsibility of not failing those who trusted me with this awesome event. But then i builded so much hype that the people who were excited or the event were actually let down for how small it was compared to the hype i brought. If a developer starts building hype for their game, using marketing promotions like tv spots and spots in maganizes, both the developer and the publisher need to be careful, if the hype is big enough it will have people run around with it building it more until it reaches Overhype status, Something many games in 2014 did, and even then the consumer is to blame for hyping it too. [quote]Just buy the good games and let... casuals be casuals?[/quote] What does this has to do with anything? [quote]Since I used Assassin's Creed in my example above I'll use it again. I convinced my brother to buy a PS4 this week so we could play Farcry 4 and whatever together. Without looking at reviews or asking me he bought Assassin's Creed Unity. Why? Because he liked the other ones and is continuing the (pretty whack and confusing now) story. The point is reviews, scores, brokeness and even his own brother did nothing to influence his decision. He bought it because it's an Assassin's Creed game.[/quote] It doesn't matter tho, just because your brother loves the franchise and bought the game just because of it doesn't change the fact that pre-orders are damaging the gaming industry by giving "early" money to the developer and therefore making them release anything they have without testing it, they already have the money. Reviews tend to be a person's opinion, any gamer with the right mind can make their own decisions and build up their own opinions in games. I love Fallout 3, is one of my favorite games of all time yet you have the mayority of the fallout fanbase hate it just because it broke canon in many ways but it still was a well made fallout game. Left 4 dead 2 felt like an expansion instead of a sequel and even then i bought just because i love the series. Still with all of that pre-ordering games is a problem most consumers haven't noticed. [quote]I'll finish with saying it's awesome when a company makes a gem of a game like GTA V. You just can't hold all games to that high of a standard. It's just not realistic. It's especially unrealistic to try to hold games that are on a yearly release cycle to... any kind of standard. I don't like that they do it any more than you do. It's a toss up. You get winners like AC: Black Flag and loosers like Unity.[/quote] GTA V was very well received by audiences alike and even with plenty of pre-orders it delivered but Rockstar didn't put any special day one dlc in the pre-order, they only had a pre-order option for those who wanted to do it, sadly the mayority of games don't follow the same path and now rely on day one dlc (cut content from the base game) to get a quick buck from the consumer. No one can't predict how a game turns out, but right now developers hve proved that they have been lazy thanks to the pre-order bonuses they earn. [quote]My advice, stay away from the heavily marketed and hyped games and focus on the low key ones that will be released when they're done (instead of in time for christmas).[/quote] Which is exactly what all gamers should do except they keep pre-ordering. [quote]After looking up the numbers I REALLY can't see preordering as being a problem...[/quote] If you really want an example of pre-orders changing the gaming industry, check out the most recent videogames, specifically Destiny, Titanfall, Watch Dogs, The Order 1886, COD:AW, MCC and AC: Unity Then check out games that while having lesser marketing still had less pre-orders compared to the other games, like Sunset Overdrive, Dragon Age Inquisition, Shadow Of Mordor, Pokemon ORAS, Evolve, Infamous SS and Plants Vs. Zombies GW.

Again, thanks for the reply. You and I clearly enjoy the back and forth. :) I'm going to try to keep this one shorter. [quote]What's the question then?[/quote] [b]Why is preordering bad?[/b] [quote]Even if only the pre-orders were about 400,000 copies [b]it still gave the developer enough money to satisfy.[/b][/quote] How do you know this? Where is this information coming from? 400,000 at $60 a pop is $24 million. [b]Are you seriously saying that $24 million is enough to satisfy for Assassin's Creed?![/b] You're not saying that they could walk away with $24 million and be happy are you? Do you have any idea how much they spent to develop and market that game? [quote]And thanks to those pre-orders the rest of the people who bought the game without a pre-order got in exchange a buggy game that was technically rushed to fill the quota because the devs couldn't fix a few bugs in-game. Which forced a huge day one patch on the game. Not matter how miniscule the pre-order numbers are, their influence in the developer is so much that most of the time it makes them in a way "greedy and lazy". Sure every company is in it for the money but it's not fair to sit back and release an incomplete game and shit on the consumer who trusted them with their money.[/quote] The logic of everything above hinges on the idea that preorder sales are enough to influence what companies do before the game is released. You have not shown me how you came to this conclusion. Answering this one question: [b]Are you seriously saying that $24 million is enough to satisfy for Assassin's Creed?![/b] with a simple yes or no will let me know that we'll have to agree to disagree about whether $24 million is enough to satisfy (I'm also unclear on what exactly it satisfies). Games are buggy when released because the developers are rushed with deadlines. [b]Preorder sales in no way effect when a game is released.[/b] [quote]It doesn't matter tho, just because your brother loves the franchise and bought the game just because of it doesn't change the fact that pre-orders are damaging the gaming industry by giving "early" money to the developer and therefore making them release anything they have without testing it, they already have the money.[/quote] Again, this hinges on one question: [b]Are you seriously saying that $24 million is enough to satisfy for Assassin's Creed?![/b] If you believe $24 million is enough for a game that goes on to make [b]hundreds of millions[/b] I can understand why you believe preordering games causes the problems you've listed so far. [b]I don't believe preordering is "enough to satisfy" or even comes close to satisfying anything so I don't believe preordering causes any of the problems people attribute to preordering.[/b] [quote][quote]After looking up the numbers I REALLY can't see preordering as being a problem...[/quote] If you really want an example of pre-orders changing the gaming industry, check out the most recent videogames, specifically Destiny, Titanfall, Watch Dogs, The Order 1886, COD:AW, MCC and AC: Unity[/quote] How are those "example[s] of pre-orders changing the gaming industry"? Those are just examples of heavily marketed games that didn't meet the expectations of some gamers. I'm certain that if you looked up the preorder numbers for each of those games you would see that they represent a small fraction of total sales. I bet even for The Order. Even if The Order's preorder sales somehow ended up being a heafty percent of total sales that would mean they didn't get the expected sales (and most likely unprofitable). It would not mean they got enough to satisfy. Destiny and Titanfall were trying new things. That can't be easy. COD's and AC's problem are the yearly release cycle, not preordering. MCC just seemed like a fail, I don't know much about it though. No Xbox One so haven't followed it. The Order... lol Don't know what happened there. Seems like they were trying something "new" as well. Like a playable movie more than a game. I was disappointed in Watch Dogs too but... I don't recall it being buggy... just wasn't as cool as I thought it was going to be. [quote]Then check out games that while having lesser marketing still had less pre-orders compared to the other games, like Sunset Overdrive, Dragon Age Inquisition, Shadow Of Mordor, Pokemon ORAS, Evolve, Infamous SS and Plants Vs. Zombies GW.[/quote] Not sure what you're saying here. Less marketing = fewer preorders. [quote][quote]My advice, stay away from the heavily marketed and hyped games and focus on the low key ones that will be released when they're done (instead of in time for christmas).[/quote] Which is exactly what all gamers should do except they keep pre-ordering.[/quote] Again, why should they? It's their money and preorder sales (IMHO) are in no way the cause of the problems people are so vocally claiming they are. If preordering truly was the cause of all the problems people claim they are I too would agree with preordering damaging the state of modern gaming (or whatever). I just don't see how 5% of total sales impacts anything. It brings me back to this one question. [b]Are you seriously saying that $24 million is enough to satisfy for Assassin's Creed?![/b]

[quote][quote]What's the question then?[/quote] [b]Why is preordering bad?[/b][/quote] Which i gave you two answers in two different posts. [quote][quote]Even if only the pre-orders were about 400,000 copies [b]it still gave the developer enough money to satisfy.[/b][/quote] How do you know this? Where is this information coming from?[/quote] I'm using the same example you used in your last post. [quote]400,000 at $60 a pop is $24 million. [b]Are you seriously saying that $24 million is enough to satisfy for Assassin's Creed?![/b] You're not saying that they could walk away with $24 million and be happy are you?[/quote] Is enough money to keep the developer from doing more hard work since they already have a portion of the money with them and the hype is big enough to guarantee the rest that's coming. I've never said they stop making the game after a certain amount of money is made, I'm saying the development of the game starts to be lazy and sometimes downright awful. [quote]Do you have any idea how much they spent to develop and market that game?[/quote] Yes i do, but that's the Publishers job, not the developer. A publisher has enough resources to push marketing strategies down our throats. Big companies like EA and Activision besides funding the whole game they still are the ones who build the hype and have certain requisites for the game in development. How come Bungie with $500 million dollars from Activision still didn't do a solid enjoyable experience that was hyped (words from Bungie themselves) to be in par with big franchises like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. [[quote]quote]And thanks to those pre-orders the rest of the people who bought the game without a pre-order got in exchange a buggy game that was technically rushed to fill the quota because the devs couldn't fix a few bugs in-game. Which forced a huge day one patch on the game. Not matter how miniscule the pre-order numbers are, their influence in the developer is so much that most of the time it makes them in a way "greedy and lazy". Sure every company is in it for the money but it's not fair to sit back and release an incomplete game and shit on the consumer who trusted them with their money.[/quote] The logic of everything above hinges on the idea that preorder sales are enough to influence what companies do before the game is released. You have not shown me how you came to this conclusion[/quote]. There's enough proof out there thay show how pre-orders have damaged the industry. http://gamerant.com/video-game-preorders-stats/ Pre-orders influence both the consumer and the developer a lot. At this moment games with high pre-orders are giving the developer a reason to go "slow" because they are already willing to pay for it no matter what. They release all these promotions and from there they build hype. These pre-orders are technically an excuse for the developer to get your money now, even to the point of releasing different pre-order versions that cost a lot, in the case of those costly pre-orders they bring a few items in there to justify it's price but what not many people see it's that that same "pre-order this version" offers are actually content that's supposed to be in game. How come some skins and one simple monster from the game evolve couldnt make it to the final game and yet they where available if you pay extra money? Pre-orders years ago where an amazing thing because retailers only got limited copies to work with, now the demand is so high that everyone can pre-order and therefore give their money to the developer when even the game hasn't come out. [quote]Answering this one question: [b]Are you seriously saying that $24 million is enough to satisfy for Assassin's Creed?![/b][/quote] Is enough to influence the developer's job at developing a full-fledged game with no bugs, cut content and disk-locked content at all. [quote]with a simple yes or no will let me know that we'll have to agree to disagree about whether $24 million is enough to satisfy (I'm also unclear on what exactly it satisfies).[/quote] The fact that they already have our money for pre-ordering gives both the developer and the publisher reasons as to why they should be stopping to be so "hard-working". All of the games that came out recently where buggy, had cut content for no reason, lazy designs and much more. How come all those games that were supposed ti be in the works for years still delivered very low experiences. How did AC:Unity passed the bug test? The game was ridled with bugs everywhere and yet Ubisoft earned enough money from it. The pre-order numbers made ir clear that no matter what the consumer is still gonna buy it. The consumer is also risking themselves by paying $60 for what it could be an unpolished game with not much content to justify it's price. [quote]Games are buggy when released because the developers are rushed with deadlines. [b]Preorder sales in no way effect when a game is released.[/b][/quote] This is where pre-orders affect the publisher, you should check out why EA is one of the most hated companies because of it. They don't rush games because they want to, they do it because they got our money from the pre-order and think that game is "complete" enough to be rushed. Battlefield 4 is a huge example of this. [quote][quote]It doesn't matter tho, just because your brother loves the franchise and bought the game just because of it doesn't change the fact that pre-orders are damaging the gaming industry by giving "early" money to the developer and therefore making them release anything they have without testing it, they already have the money.[/quote] Again, this hinges on one question: [b]Are you seriously saying that $24 million is enough to satisfy for Assassin's Creed?![/b][/quote] Why do you repeat this? [quote]If you believe $24 million is enough for a game that goes on to make [b]hundreds of millions[/b] I can understand why you believe preordering games causes the problems you've listed so far. [b]I don't believe preordering is "enough to satisfy" or even comes close to satisfying anything so I don't believe preordering causes any of the problems people attribute to preordering.[/b][/quote] You're being subjective, just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it's fact. Also $24 million is enough to guarantee the developer that the game is gonna sell well even if its broken as hell. [quote]After looking up the numbers I REALLY can't see preordering as being a problem...[/quote] Is not about the numbers, is about how they influence the developer in many ways resulting on broken games. A game with high pre-orders doesn't guarantee a succesful game, but it guarantees million of copies to be sold. [quote][quote]If you really want an example of pre-orders changing the gaming industry, check out the most recent videogames, specifically Destiny, Titanfall, Watch Dogs, The Order 1886, COD:AW, MCC and AC: Unity[/quote] How are those "example[s] of pre-orders changing the gaming industry"? Those are just examples of heavily marketed games that didn't meet the expectations of some gamers.[/quote] All of these games earned high pre-order numbers to guarantee a succesful economic launch but not a succesful videogame launch. They sold millions with a percent of that money being pre-orders and yet the games didn't deliver. A developer and publisher needs to take control of how the game is handled when showing it to the audience. Good promotion on any game tells the consumer that the game is good no matter what, which then moves up consumers to start-preordering games without their own research. Many years ago this wouldn't be a problem because all those games needed to fill a quota and be completed, none of those old games needed dlc or pre-orders, the developer had a harder time making those games because if they didn't deliver it was certain that they will go bankrupt, now broken games are taking the business.