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Edited by Paralakz: 10/19/2014 2:05:14 PM
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The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly - 10/17 Weekly Update

Firstly, let me preface this by saying that I love this game. I bought a Destiny Edition PS4 bundle EXCLUSIVELY for Destiny and figured I'd get some other games along the way, (Shadow of Mordor and Don't Starve, so far) which my fiancee laments because I never touch them and she'd have liked the money for them. I don't want this to turn into a massive flamefest where I just sit here and trash Bungie/Destiny, so I'm going to look at things I see in varying degrees of success or failure. I'd like to make this a weekly thing and hopefully it can create a bridge of communication with Bungie to allow them the opportunity to react to their own announcements before it's too late. Without further ado, let's begin. [u][b]The Good:[/b][/u] [b]Balance Philosophy[/b] - I think the quote Bungie posted on balance is perfect. The idea that they are looking at balance as a venn diagram rather than strictly linear equality makes me hopeful for the future of PVP in this game. For those of you clamoring for more options, more playlists etc, know that their outlook on balance says a lot about the way they're looking at the future of the game. This looks to mean great things for us. [b]Vex Mythoclast[/b] - The Vex never needed a PVE nerf. Not a little one, not a big one, not one at all. However, it got one. Were the game not so young I might skip this and blame Bungie for the original change, but it's going to take some working together with the players to get the kinks of balance worked out together. Allow them some growing room, guys; they're obviously trying to fix it, they just need to find the right path. [u][b]The Bad:[/b][/u] [b]Atheon[/b] - The Atheon ENCOUNTER needs no changing whatsoever. If a raid is about learning from new experiences and the final boss is about putting that all together then Atheon as he stands (NOT as he falls, currently) is perfect. You learned how deadly oracles were during the Templar Encounter and that your shield has some pretty neat abilities and solutions to the problems oracles provide. You then learned about what the shield can do in terms of melee combat during the Gatekeeper phase of the Atheon Encounter. Now you've got to put it altogether (along with the other things you've learned) and work with your team to fight Atheon. You've got your shield guy(s), your defenders, your high DPS void burn guys, you're ready and you all know what your role is. But then none of it matters because, contrary to their own design philosophy (see upcoming quote), Bungie has decided to remove those roles and add in some rolls (You see it's funny, because dice are random and you roll dice. Get it?). [quote]It's about the group dynamic. It's not just about a casual dynamic. It's about an understanding of people committed to playing the roles in raids. And preparing. With raids, you don't just jump into them. You've got to prepare before you go in, and decide, what are you doing? What am I doing? Let's all talk about it in orbit. Okay, what role are you going to play? Well, I'm an x Titan, whatever type of Titan I am, and I'm going to be defensive and hold positions. And, have you played this before? Yeah, I found success when I did it this way[/quote] - Jonty Barnes (Special thanks to redditor AudioVisualize for posting this.) Wait, what? So we're supposed to sit in orbit and discuss those roles ahead of time, but during Atheon it's all willy-nilly and you might have half the people who know the relic but all three of them could be on the outside? That's ridiculous and obtuse. In no raiding game do the roles simply get randomized. This needs to be addressed. [u][b]The Ugly:[/b][/u] [b]Communication[/b] - It would have been so easy to list the Atheon changes here and just go on-and-on about them forever and how ugly they are, because they're pretty ugly. However, I believe they're a symptom of something far uglier - a sincere gap in communication between Bungie and the player base. Your player base told you changes needed to come to the PVP, that we needed communication possibilities, raid matchmaking and more varied daily tasks. You gave us a shifty announcement that MAYBE we'd get some of that, and a whole mess of things we didn't want. Among those things are this obtuse, contrarian change to Atheon, the PVE side nerf of the Vex, the Queen's event which was just level 28 version of quests we already have to do far too often and the Iron Banner which sounded so much better than it functioned. On the topic of the raid alone, there are a few examples of the splotchy communication you guys are offering to us. [u]Message:[/u] We're so excited to see the creative ways players interact with our world and how they solve the problems presented to them. [u]Delivery:[/u] Oh, don't solve it THAT way. *Nerfs sniping platforms* Or THAT way. *Atheon now randomly selects who to send in the timestream* There is a definite communication lapse here and we need to get it fixed. If it's player side, tell us so we can communicate with you more directly and less rudely (Ya, I've seen the way some people talk to you guys). However, I think even Deej would admit at this point that the message the players are delivering is pretty clear. That's my schtick, guys. Let me know what you all think and hopefully we can get some Bungie replies in here. Edit: It seems that some people miss the point of WHY the Atheon change is bad. There are two VERY clear and concise reasons. 1. It is contrary to the design direction Bungie claimed they had for us/the game, as illustrated by the quote. 2. It's like, four weeks(?) after the raid came out. If it was a bug it should have been addressed week two and if it's a change (most believe it is) it should STILL have come week two and should NOT have been accompanied by them trying to sell it is a but fix. It is simply ridiculous to change this after groups have learned the encounter, found their roles, and worked together to make it smooth.
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  • It's awful disheartening that I didn't get a reply from Deej or anyone else at Bungie. At least 80 percent of the replies here have been in support of my post and I can't even get confirmation that Bungie NOTICED. Now, they're pushing the awful Atheon "fix" out without even having a dialogue with the players. That is the issue here, Bungie/Deej. There is no existing dialogue. Go to the League of Legends forums and see how many threads have a Riot reply.

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  • Bumping awesome thread.

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  • Edited by lITHEOPIl: 10/19/2014 10:29:31 PM
    You can't change the rules mid way through a game because people are beating it, period. Us hardcore raiders have all dedicated roles in which we all play, with this update your pretty much saying the hell with team work guys just randomize everything and think on the fly. This is not how a raid works!! We defeated the raid with the design you guys put forward, don't go changing the goal posts because we did, that's like a naughty self indulged little kid stealing the wickets and going home because he got bowled out. Grow up Bungie.

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    • I wouldn't of minded the change to Atheon if they didn't come out and say it was a bug...A bug is something that breaks the game and makes it unplayable or something that has different outcomes. I would say having Atheon port random people back is more of a bug then it currently is. If they just said, "we are changing the Atheon fight to make it more challenging for players" then I would of been more acceptable to it. Don't just lie and say it was a bug when obviously it wasn't. Instead of fixing these so called bugs why not spend the time to make updates about what is going on inside. Don't just tell us we are working on somethings and to be ready for change, but maybe give us some details. We already bought the game, why keep us in the dark still. We want to see that progress is being made, not that we think progress is being made. It would also be nice to have questions answered from the mail sack that people want to know. Don't answer one question from one person who is the only person asking the question. If I posted a question saying "If Atheon was in a bar fight, what weapon would he use" I am 99% sure it would be answered. Just help us, help you. This game is made for us, so let us help you shape it. I am not saying to take all our remarks, but when a majority of your community is asking for something at least acknowledge it instead of avoiding it entirely. We want Destiny to be around but if you continue at this pace there won't be a community left to give you feedback.

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    • Edited by Silentkill FB: 10/19/2014 3:21:41 PM
      I like how Bungie doesn't want players pushing Atheon off the edge of the map yet they add a place to fall to your death on almost every map they make. Wow.

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      • I haven't been through VoG but once halfway through . I will at one point but after all that's been going on I just don't seem as motivated to undertake the "getting everybody all round up" time or even just excited about getting it done . Level 30 used to be a goal , still is of course , but just not as much wind in the sails to push for it . Don't get me wrong , I love the game , will play it nonstop past the DLC . Even longer . I've accumulated too much time and took brick by brick of the foundation I had for complaining about any aspect that has been changed or that I don't like with every hour that I put into it . Even the Pocket Infinty bounty I'm working on isn't a mad priority . I suppose that seeing as how I never used it before the patch I won't know what I'm missing really , and I guess that will have to be a good thing . I do have faith that they will deliver more story and other components that will benefit players and the game itself . However , it does seem rather counterproductive to nerf things that don't appear or seem to be in need of it . And for that matter to address issues that anyone that has read any of the forms can see are not in the majority of what people are asking for . As with anything the artist that creates has every right to create what they want . But when you have a piece of art that you want to sell , your obvious goal is to sell it . And even though we're not exactly part of the inside plan for the game , you would think that if you wanted to be successful at selling something , the artist sometimes has to tweak a little bit of something here and there to keep consumers making that purchase , or even continue to play , happy . Even at the expense of the artist . They have the right if they want to never have changed anything , but if from day one ,have been asking us for feedback , (and they have gotten it sure) then at least in that respect must be willing to accommodate issues that have been brought to their attention . Granted , we don't see the whole picture and maybe all these issues will get addressed . They never ever had to really give us weekly content , but since they said they were going to : They kind of are more or less obligated to do it now . If one of the selling points of your game is to change up things week to week then it should be happening . Even if they were not planning to address some of these issues and have seen that their patches are making absolutely no sense to anyone but themselves , then at the least they could take some random level and throw some distance markers on it , call it the "Sparrow Race" and just let people have at it , if nothing else to distract them from these other changes (or lack thereof ) This game has enough potential to be open enough to address even the craziest of ideas from Sparrow Racing to multiple different suggested PVP game modes . I mean if you throw a hungry dog a bone the dog still comes back . For example if the Loot Cave was such a big thing that a lot of people intently zoned out on , but happens to go against the basic premise of what they want us to experiencing , then why not just throw in an extra random board with a little cave or two let people go out there , face a massive never ending , continuously spawned higher level enemies to a timer . Count down to the no-respawn and let them go . You know , you've seen it before : it's called Survival mode . Have a point system and some type of leaderboard , even if it only has whoever is on there too , and your friends . I mean if somebody wants to spend an hour shooting at a cave then let them . They paid for it . You can't stop people from never finishing the story mode and only playing patrol . Like I said I love the game and whatever they fix or unfix , I'll play either way , but at the least : I do sincerely hope that the communication pay off from us to them does prove to be a little more open ended . PS sorry for the massive Great Wall of Text ...

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        • ⊂_ヽ   \\ _    \( •_•) F     < ⌒ヽ A    /   へ\ B    /  / \\ U    レ ノ   ヽ_つ L   / / O   / /| U  ( (ヽ S  | |、\  | 丿 \ ⌒)  | |  ) / `ノ )  Lノ

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          • The randomization of Atheon's Timestream is a huge design flaw in terms of the current raid mechanics. As user Rathex mentioned below, each fireteam uses specific weapons to deal with enemies in their respective areas. Precision weapons are great for the "Home Team" while raid weapons with Oracle damage are good for the "Away Team."

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          • Personally, I don't like hearing that they are already changing and making the Raid harder since I have yet to be able to enter it. As a working man and father of 2, I get to play a couple hours each night, so I am not able to grind for the gear upgrades that all these young kids are able to do. I'm teetering on the edge of 26/27 and still trying to acquire the material I needed to upgrade my armor to get to 28. I have been told by many to not even enter the Raid until 28 and better if I am 29. It seems to me that Bungie is trying to challenge the higher tier players who have a lifestyle that allows them to play 6-10 hours a day and are already maxed out. It is extremely disheartening to the other 95% of us that are still grinding toward beginning the Raid to hear that now the only people that will be able to complete it are the same 200 people that have already completed it and have the gear to be able to adapt to randomization. I don't even feel like trying anymore.

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            • I also don't like the philosophy that everyone must be a jack of all trades. I like the idea of becoming the guy who's 'really good in such and such role so we'll put the new guy with him,' or 'he's a hunter so he should be in back dealing damage while the titan is mixing it up in the middle.' Incidentally I've had to learn all the VOG roles to some degree based on my teams, but I don't think that should be necessary for everyone. I feel particularly bad for people who haven't got a good group to go through the raid yet as this will really raise the learning curve for them. It's hard enough explaining 1 role to someone before the fight. Trying to explain every role before going in is far too confusing to absorb. You'll need some patient friends (and watching a couple hours of youtube videos beforehand wouldn't hurt). I think this (imo flawed) philosophy is already elsewhere in the game though. I've thought from the beginning that there's not really enough difference between the classes. When I first downloaded the game and picked a class I assumed the Titan would be something like a Tank, the Hunter would be ranged DPS, and the Warlock would be more of an AOE character. It seems like that's SORT OF the case but the differences are so slight that they hardly matter. If you think about your average boss fight there's no real strategy or differentiation. Everyone just sort of stays alive and tries to dish out damage on the boss. MAYBE you've got someone focusing more on the mobs but which class do you pick for that? Who cares, just whoever is willing.

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            • Great post but it is all for nil. You see, Bungie is a lot like my soon to be ex wife. Always talking about something unimportant and at the wrong time like talking about having a baby during the middle of a SEC championship football game. On top of that they are delivering a lot like her, pot roast and ice tea instead of chips and dip with beer which is what you really had your heart set on for that big game. I have gotten my money out of this game. If it isn't fixed I will not feel bad about moving on. There are a lot of really good looking games that are going to be released over the next year and it starts in November so I hope they pull their heads out and listen to the real problems and put forth some real solutions and deliver some real "new content" weekly. I do believe I heard something about having fresh content weekly, I am still waiting.....

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              • Well if they do it like this.... Lets show that us hardcore raiders can still beat whatever they throw at us. Challenge accepted Bungie. *cracks knuckles*

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              • Copied Drift0r's title!

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                • Very mature. Good points. I agree to everything. I suggest you do that about every weekly update, i like reading your opinion since you're not one of 'those'.

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                  • My take on the good and bad, as I play A) boss encounters: I have played a few mmo's and other various RPGs myself. I have no issues with them fixing that bug. Let's face it, it's a bug. If a boss was meant to be slapped off an edge so you can win the raid, then it's not a raid. Of course, I have yet to walk into VoG, so you can throw the whole "you don't know shit" in my face, but I stand by that comment. This isn't an issue with me. B) I would really like matchmaking abilities for the heroic weeklies and dailies. And the choice to turn it on and off. I get that people can solo and some people have done it, not to mention multiple videos on youtubes showing you how. I prefer to do it as a group. At the same time, I wouldn't want ransoms suddenly joining me 2 seconds before the last boss dies. It's annoying, especially when they get gears and I don't for doing nothing. C) it still amazes me, so I need to say this: the views are gorgeous. D) I still haven't gotten over slapping people to death in crucible. That's just awesome E) I have been going through some maps and some of the places I have been are surprising and also suggests being used for future expansion. But, at the same time I have to ask: why are the maps so small? It's a whole planet and I can zip through the entirety of it in minutes. Not to mention, ok I understand falling off cliffs is instant death. But if I walked or jump out of zone, if you put a barrier there and I can't jump back quickly enough, I am dead. Why? I am not going to explore very far, so just remove that timer and let me climb back somehow. F) I have issues with jumping personally, so this might just be me. But I am wondering, why is it when you're facing a wall your long jump doesn't work as well as when you're away from the wall. G) my issue with communications isn't with bungie, but more with how it currently works ingame. Ignoring the already mentioned issues of not being able to chat in crucibles and etc, there's also the whole other aspect where I have to hear people over the ingame environmental sounds. I don't know about you guys, but I am not interested in hearing the dying moans and flying bullets when someone's telling me there's some stealthies coming my way. While using party chat lowers the problems, it still gets pretty chaotic. H) abilities to join team randomly. I appreciate that bungie thinks we are real life friends so joining teams should be a given. However, since matchmaking isn't available for some stuff, now complete strangers are "friends". Some people are rude, uneducated or ignorant, inviting themselves to fire teams without any indication. On the ps4, messaging and requesting people to join is slow and wonky. Adding a button to ask the fire team leader if it's ok to join is really not that hard. I) fixing cryptarch doesn't change anything if drop rates are completely weird and off the scales for some players. I am not asking a patch to make it easier, I am wondering why the hell is it so hard to equip some people while others get a rainfall of drops? J) don't mind the nerfs to the guns, I am attempting to try all guns anyways. Still find the shortie an ass to use

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                  • Got to laugh. You NEVER get people moaning or compalining about a boss in World of Warcraft. They just adapt and carry on. But this forum... it's all about instant gratification and piling up the purples before their Cheerios in the morning.

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                    • I agree with this and I expect a lot of people will fear doing hard mode just for the changes they are doing as on the hard version it is crazy enough without having to figure out if anyone can use the relic in the correct way or who will super the 3 enemies then proceed to get all the oracles - my team has put off doing hard mode until we are all 30 just because of this patch which is easy said than done due to RNG being everywhere and that it is a week till we can go again for gear - Also I would like to mention that it turns me off helping the green as grass get through the raid as it will be very frustrating... especially if you have multiple newcomers to the raid - Also I take it for the matchmaking for the Raid isn't happening now due to the fact that most of the people who would use such systems will be on their own or with someone else who haven't done the Raid so if you got a whole team of those players together how are they suppose to get comfortable in a role when you take that aspect away and correct chaos on the final boss where everyone will be shouting to ask "Who is in the portal?" I have to do this though... before you "fix" Atheon's boss fight surely you should fix all the issues in terms of glitches and bugs where in only 2 would teleport or you would succumb to the Oracles after all of them are dead just because you cut it a little close on one of them but it was down for sure. I know there was others but can't think of them at the moment of typing this. Another point one of my fellow Guardians made was this: People are going to start using the rebirth super to get out of the sent back or forward - so basically they are going to use a exploit to get out of your change which ruins a perfectly fine strategy just so they can continue their preferred roles which would be defend the gates of course. Eventually my clan will get used to doing both roles before the patch for the normal difficulty and if we all obtain level 30 (only 4 of us who need the gear still) we may have another crack at the hard version but I know this one change which is shutting down a strategy for no reason as it was designed as such to happen due to him doing it 100% of the time except when a glitch happened to me for simply jumping but the point stands they changed it for no reason - if it was originally like this so he would teleport random players - sure I would be fine with it.

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                      • I couldn't agree more well put.

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                      • Very good post. You omitted to mention the second horrible nerf, the one to Pocket Infinity. Not only was it not needed, it made the weapon useless. Bungie needs to seperate PvP balance from PvE. And honestly, I don't see the PvP aspect of destiny carrying this game for the projected 10 years. Balncing to PvE players' detriment is therefore a very bad mistake imho. It's also interesting how quick they are to nerf (uncalled for ones at that) versus how slow they are to buff some weapons in dire needed that they announced an upcoming buff for.

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                        • You have hit some really interesting points. However, I feel like they are randomizing the atheon warp system to prevent people with getting so comfortable with one role that they never do anything else. Randomizing the warp would mean that everyone has to be flexible, ever member of the fire team would have know what to do while in the portal with relic, and outside the portal with the sync plates. In the end it creates a stronger, more flexible, fireteam. It will cause some interesting challenges for first time raiders, but they will be that much better at it when they come out.

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                        • Bump

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                        • the random teleporting does sound like a good idea, but when it comes to group who are [u]doing raid for the first time[/u] it only provided's another challenge to the already difficult raid. First difficulty you learn the ropes, what the bosses do, who gets the shield, who shoots the oracles, who opens the door, etc. On hard mode its all of that and [u]if one of you dies your screwed[/u]. In all honesty to me the "random teleporting" should either be only on hard mode or what I'm going to call "legend mode" because with random teleporting everyone needs to have the skill to do basically every job at Atheon, which sounds like a feat not many teams can do.

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                        • Dunno if i agree on the Atheon Part. It's meant to be random and challenging. And it forces things to be more dynamic and interesting. Also it's not that hard to figure out how to use the relic. If you need to coach someone on how to use it, the sword of crota mission is pretty much for that purpose. It Also gives people reason to give more players a chance to learn and use the relic. It's fun to use and I think more people should get the chance to try it out and learn it. It's always going to be easier and quicker to just have the same guy do the same thing every time.... but the last part mixing things up with the random ports forces people to gain experience in other roles... thus giving the game more diversity for people during the raid. And honestly just using the same cheese to beat every boss on every run gets super old...

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                        • I've played many a raid that had bosses randomly select players to do things to. It's not game breaking in the least bit, and it makes the encounters far more fun.

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                          • [quote]obtuse[/quote] I love when I see this word used outside of math <3

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                            • I feel like they should let people mass test this stuff early so they could catch it. But that will never happen. If a large amount of people were allowed to test Crota's end on separate characters or something 2 weeks before the DLC launched the raid would be much better for it. So many cheesing strategies exist for Vault of Glass it's pretty sad. They're gonna be fixing this for a month or so. Because once they patch one thing someone else will find a way to break the raid and make it super easy again. It'll just keep repeating. Open up Crota's end for a select... few hundred more than just your in house testers? Then heavily monitor them. Fix anything you don't want in the raid. It's what Blizzard does with all of their games and I feel like it works out better for them because of this.

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