Autorifles in this game are largely split into three categories:
High ROF rifles, such as Atheon's Epilogue, Unwilling Soul-09, and Dr. Nope
Medium ROF rifles, such as Monte Carlo, Hard Light, and the Shingen-E
Low ROF rifles, such as the Galahad-E, Shadow Price, and Suros Regime.
Now, prior to the auto rifle nerf bungie put out, Medium ROF rifles were the dominant auto rifles in PVP, usually combining long effective ranges with really good damage application and acceptable DPS. Then the auto-rifle nerfs happened: All autos had their base impact cut by the same amount, had their headshot multiplier cut, and received recoil nerfs to reduce their DPS application. This effectively cut the effective range and damage application of medium ROF rifles but had the unintended side effects of HEAVILY nerfing high ROF rifles (The base impact nerf hit their body shot damage by like 30%) while leaving low ROF rifles more or less the same. The fact that the base impact nerfs were applied evenly across the sub-classes meant that low ROF rifles lost comparatively less of their damage, and their low rate of fire meant that the recoil changes didn't nerf their effective range as much as it did the medium and high ROF rifles. The only nerf they took particularly hard was the headshot multiplier one.
Suros's focus fire perk magnifies these nerf-evading characteristics, but really the entire vanquisher/shadow price/suros/galahad group needs significantly more recoil, as they're all basically hitting out to the same ranges they were pre-patch. For now though, let's focus on the Suros:
The main issue with the Suros is not its damage, it's that it applies its damage too consistently. It does damage more or less in line with other weapons in it's subclass, and while that subclass probably needs to be toned down slightly, that's not a problem with the Suros. The problem with the Suros is how easy it is to APPLY that damage. The gun's focus fire perk makes recoil a non-issue for damage application by lowering the rate of fire, and then the gun's hammer forged perk extends the damage drop off range to scout rifle level. The focus fire perk also effectively extends the weapon's magazine (which is already the greatest in its subclass), allowing players to use it for suppressing fire, something low ROF rifles usually have too small of magazines to do. The basic effect of this is that the gun is a scout rifle with auto-rifle DPS and a machinegun magazine. It's performing outside of its role.
Now, we can fix this PVP problem WITHOUT nerfing the gun in PVE by changing the Suros's perks: Switch the field choke out for aggressive ballistics, switch hammerforged perk out for extended magazine(A PVE buff actually, don't give field scout because it'd increase the mag too much), and then nerf the range stat on ALL low ROF auto rifles by around 10 points to help with low ROF auto rifles beating scout rifles at their ranges. PVE players get to fight more or less the same while the gun gets a less over-reaching niche in PVP as a spammy suppression weapon. You could even alter the exotic perk to give it mulligan + return to sender. The gun gets a consistent identity (it's a bit confused right now) and the PVP problem goes away.
An elegant solution, no?
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quit the bitching please. the suro's isn't THAT good in pvp. yeah it's great don't get me wrong, but not as good as any other auto rifle. it's an exotic for a reason yet other legendary auto rifles can out shoot the suros most of the time. i own a suros and always wanted one and its not as op as everyone seems to think. i don't even use it in pvp. how about we all own it and upgrade it and actually try it before crying foul in the forums about nerfs.
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The only thing overpowered about it is focused fire. Even blue or green auto rifles with this perk seem overpowered. I've done tests on the damage added by this perk. In most cases it causes an additional 30% dmg in others it raises the dmg of the gun almost 100%. I don't think they need to nerf the Suros moreso look into the discrepancies brought about by this perk. Which single handedly makes this gun out perform most scout rifles. Also because it is a mid ranged weapon, it favors less precise aim compared to a scout rifle which requires precise aim. I feel like I'm piercing ears with my scout rifle. The shots are there they just don't seem to do the right dmg.
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I also think that people need to realize Suros isn't that good. It is just decent at all encounters.
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My Crypt Dweller eats Suroses for breakfast, can't wait to get MIDA, gonna rek sum nubs. In all seriousness though, I've fought alongside and against the Suros and never found it to be too overpowering. Sure it gives you a small edge against the average player, but it is an EXOTIC, they are supposed to be good. We really don't want to make them more underwhelming than they already are.
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Edited by LONE RONIN2012: 11/28/2014 2:38:57 AMWeapons are not the problem, the poor map design for close to medium engagements, that ARs are designed for, is the problem. This is why you have more weapon flexibility in PvE vs PvP. Nerfing them will only cause a weapon imbalance.
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Sounds like a lil girls gun , I've dismantled two because I hate that lil girly pee shooter sound
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I must admit that Suros it's the best auto rifle for 1 vs 1 encounters. It works nice at mid-long range. Perhaps the main reason that you can't beat Suros players it's because they heal after dealing damage because of the Suros Regime perk. However, at close range, you can beat them easily with a good fusion rifle or a hand cannon, namely, The Last Word as a example.
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First lets start with the shotguns then work our way from there.
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Base damage of ALL auto rifles was nerfed by 2%. None were nerfed by 30%.
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Edited by Gibsonmac1981: 11/30/2014 12:13:26 AMThis isn't even accurate. The suros was so successful because it was one of 3 exotic primaries to be sold by xur before IB, and the only one to be sold more than once, therefore most players had a chance to buy it. With the paradigm among the casual players being "exotics are the end-all be-all best weapons," along with the daily AR headshot bounties made it the go-to primary for the masses, so obviously it was going to do well, it was one of the most commonly used weapons in IB. In reality going head-to-head with dr nope, epilogue etc, it gets out-paced. It's slow ROF and very controllable recoil makes it noob friendly for getting headshots. Also, the low ROF is the reason why the elite players will not use this weapon, focused fire lowers the dps too much, the ROF drop doesn't match the damage bump.
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You know, it's OKto have some powerful/reliable weapons. I'm sick of hearing that less stability is the answer. I hate using guns that jump around. Balance it by improving other weapon classes/subclasses, not destroy what is actually working.
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Just shut up. The weapons need an overhaul/buff.
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Edited by Twiggy: 11/29/2014 1:38:41 PMeven i can agree with this. shadow price (i use it) and suros were OP in Iron Banner
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How about, you like it you buy it and use it! You don't like it? Don't buy it don't use it! So simple!
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This post is a masterful display of someone using their grey matter. Nicely done.
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Bump. Good ideas, especially one for a weapon so overpowered.
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If they are going to nerf it. At least give me more than 3 ascendant energy when I dismantle it.
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Edited by Adam: 11/27/2014 6:33:39 AMIt needs actual recoil IMO. I think the Suros atm is straight up broken. It's like a high-damage, no-recoil laser-beam with the range of a scout rifle.
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Remove Hammer forged and make it actually fire slower while ads and it'd be fine. The damn thing is a lazor and it gets 36 damage a head shot.
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I never have issues with my Vanquisher VIII....... Suros Regime is a PoS.
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The best solution is to completely separate how weapons affect guardian and non-guardian targets.
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Sounds like a well thought out solution for both pvp while maintaining PvE potency. Like.
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That would be a decent change
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If there was a weapon that needed nerfing I'd say Atheons epilogue would be the one. I'm not saying it should be done.. I understand it's a raid weapon blah blah but for it to be more better as a legendary than exotics is just wrong IMO. I would rather see all the exotics get buffed with elemental damage as a fix. I hate nerfs!
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It's a exotic it's suppose to be better.
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Good constructive feedback. Unsure if I agree or not, will dwell on it for a while. Kudos for a good post OP.