[quote]Why should we throw Savathun into D3? She's D2's endgame.[/quote] Same reason why they should do a massive dlc expansion in D3: Because it hasn't been done yet. And D2 endgame can be a number of possibilities right now. There is an entirely unexplored concept with Calus. The House of Light is still struggling according to the same report above and if we end the threat only to see the very big threat looming namely the darkness? Then Destiny 3 is set up perfectly for a big release. Savathun is not necessarily D2 endgame. There is far too much not yet revealed surrounding her including her plans. We are reacting to her. Maybe a Xivu Arath potential. [quote]Another thing, Savathun isn't splitting that power if she gets it.[/quote] Don't be so sure of that. Savathun knows her weaknesses against her sister Auryx because she died same as Xivu. This means those two are tossed in the same corner and there is no greater bridge then a fellow companion and a similar enemy. There is far too much foreshadowing in the strike and the lore to suggest Xivu and Savathun are not working together since we are the ones they are experimenting around trying to get a champion to beat us. [quote]Quria can take, but only with Savathun's power as a battery. Soon she will free herself.[/quote] Your belief here is not something I hold near and dear as you do. Quria was never found and I highly doubt a deployment in the dreaming city would be used on earth since the red legion war timeline involved in the strike. What do you actually think that purpose was for? To simply infest a random dam in the European dead zone? There are simply too many things pointing out that Savathun is planning bigger things and taking notes on humanity. Please also try and remember that the Darkness ship on the moon has been sought after by the Hive for unknown reasons as it pertains to Savathun or Xivu. It's a total unknown and yes, make no mistake, the hive are coordinated to be pursuing anything we are involved in and with the Taken strike on earth, the occurrences in the black garden, the moon hive movements (and fall of Hashladunn) and the unknown factors surrounding the pyramid ship artifact? I wouldn't be surprised if the Taken deployments are centered in the EDZ with Xivu operating on a plan constructed by Savathun. It would certainly fit the bill for surprising guardians on their home fronts and then simply "taking" us like the original plan was for the death of Crota. I can understand and even respect a few of the "theories" lore has here, but you guys also need to remember that your guessing the intentions. The subtle clues in the game point at a timeline supported by the lore. Not the other way around.

<The Hive of the Hidden Swarm are tearing each other apart by Savathun's decree. Her actions mean only to wipe them off the map. The Taken can do multiple things, and the LoS strike had nothing to do with the actions of Taking, just poisoning us while we were down. So many people that hadn't rejoined the City were still in the EDZ, wounded and not. A large pit of humanity would die right then and there. Not to mention that just because Quria CAN doesn't mean that it's actively leading. While I believe that everything with its name under it is being led by it, Savathun is DEFINITELY pulling the strings overall. The EDZ wasn't Quria, it was Savathun. The Taken in the Pyramidion? That was Quria. Savathun's been getting buildup since the Dreadfang Taken Sword in the April Update. D2 had a metric -blam!-ton of references and names related to her, even CoO shared this in its simulated adventures. The Grasp of Nokris communicated with her after the campaign, Forsaken was all her (both direct and indirect). The House of Light and Calus have had a 10th and a 5th (respectively) of the buildup she's had. And if we let the Hive go on unchecked, then the Pyramids will kill us all anyway.>

[quote]The Hive of the Hidden Swarm is tearing each other apart by Savathun's decree. Her actions mean only to wipe them off the map.[/quote] The Hidden Swarm were LT's of the old guard. Of course she wants to rotate them out to make way for new champions which could be used for either her plans or to enact key steps in her design. Remember, the entire Hive hierarchy was shaken when we killed Oryx. They need to wage war constantly now to get better to beat us. I doubt anything with those asperations isn't fighting including Xivu Arath herself). [quote]The Taken can do multiple things, and the LoS strike had nothing to do with the actions of Taking, just poisoning us while we were down.[/quote] Original dialogue in vanilla D2 is the Hive needs precise locations for their rituals. The LoS strike reasoning is definitely not just to spite guardians and humanity. The dam was abandoned and unused and in need of repair per Devrim and seeing what we saw in the cosmodrome in D1 with the Taken? It's a wise bet not to let them get a foothold anywhere if we can manage it. [quote] The EDZ wasn't Quria, it was Savathun. The Taken in the Pyramidion? That was Quria.[/quote] The EDZ could be Quria, but the best bet so far is the Taken presence in the Dreaming City is Quria and Xivu. Pyramidion is Quria and Savathun. Earth is Savathun and Xivu. There is little movement showing all three actually involved, but it is still possible they are already on earth like the nightmares to study us and prepare an assault force. [quote]The House of Light and Calus have had a 10th and a 5th (respectively) of the buildup she's had.[/quote] Actually, we have had numerous references to the ideas going on including the maintenance log above. We'll see what unfolds, but those possibilities are still out there.

The references to Xivu if anything point to her being subservient to her sister. Xivu is much more of a follower than a true leader. She was more than happy to save Oryx when her and Savathûn conspired to strand him in the Deep. I would say Savathûn is keeping her in check while making use of her tactical mind. Hence why some children of Xivu’s are seen in the Dreaming City, like Malok and the witch in the Court of Oryx, they were taken to be used as a sign of fealty. Bungie are going to want to wrap up Savathûn in Destiny 2. She’s been built up the most within this game and is the largest threat we have on the horizon besides the Pyramids. If we want to clear the board for their arrival the Witch-Queen must be dealt with first.

Considering Xivu's lore (which you missed the whole Oryx fled because of the conflict the Vex and her brought)? I think you give far too much credit to Savathun. She's cunning, but she's not the grandmaster of all this. She needs the tactical mind only Xivu provides. If we ever deal with an actual threat? It will be both of them and I personally look at the board and know Quria is probably the first one to be cleared with Savathun and Xivu being cleared early D3. As for final endgame of D2? Besides Savathun? Calus needs to be added to. The Fallen House of Light needs to be reinforced at the minimum. And there is simply too much surrounding Rasputin once this season wraps up to be ignored anymore.

Except neither Calus nor the House of Light are hostile at the end of the day. Calus is more of an observer while the House of Light are merely one faction of potential allies in the Fallen. Neither of them are best taken care of before the Darkness arrives. Oryx fled from the Vex and Xivu? Please point me to that lore. As for overcrediting Savathûn... we’re talking about the Witch-Queen who tricked Crota into letting the Vex into Oryx’s Throne World which resulted in a Vex mind that understood the Sword-Logic, which Oryx took and then gifted to Savathûn, thereby leading to Savathûn gaining the power to Take. The same Savathûn who set up the Curse on the Dreaming City not as a part of her plan, but as a game. A perfect trap to potentially kill a few guardians and secure a potential solution to her tribute problem. Being the Grandmaster is her whole point. With Quria Savathûn is in a more advantageous position than Xivu, having the ability to Take. Until we get something on Xivu however we have no way of knowing what the nature of their cooperation is.

[quote]Except neither Calus nor the House of Light are hostile at the end of the day.[/quote] That's incorrect. House of Light is not sure in for guardian support. Calus has literally ordered us into combat arenas and tried to kill us with one of his robots in the raid. Both are hostile until a pact is formed. And none have been formed. [quote]Oryx fled from the Vex and Xivu? Please point me to that lore.[/quote] If you do not know that Oryx saw his vulnerability and knew of Xivu's ambush attempt wouldn't be far behind? Then perhaps you should go reread the various stories yourself. It's definitely one of the D1 stories that the whole reason the dreadnaught exists was to protect Oryx's ascendant realm from the vulnerability the vex presented. [quote]As for over-crediting Savathûn... we’re talking about the Witch-Queen who tricked Crota into letting the Vex into Oryx’s Throne World which resulted in a Vex mind that understood the Sword-Logic[/quote] You're getting your facts mixed in with the theory. Quria is widely rumored to be able to take. It's even hinted at in the lore, but if you read closely enough? That's not the case. Remember the power to take is a tablet power gained by making a pact with the Deep itself like Oryx did. Which we have not recovered our weapon with his heart in it. Which is why months after the red legion hit? We saw a Taken Phalanx (strike LoS) appear in the EDZ. Chronological order dictated this was done with the only beings which can utilize actual sword logic as a vex mind cannot wield a weapon to kill. This is the fatal logic that goes hand in hand with the power of the Deep which is something Quria does not possess. She merely simulates when you read closely enough. Since you need a read up on Xivu Arath, you should simply read her wiki page too: https://www.destinypedia.com/Xivu_Arath,_God_of_War [quote]The same Savathûn who set up the Curse on the Dreaming City not as a part of her plan, but as a game.[/quote] Actually, since it was Xivu in pursuit of the dreadnaught following the ambush failure? She would have seen the power displayed by Oryx against the Dreaming City and it is her offspring attempting to steal the relic throughout the mission. Savathun was preoccupied elsewhere it would seem because Savathun's brood reference is only one: Dul Incaru. Xivu was all over the place which is why it is more likely her personal war against the awoken we are facing. Not Savathun though, again, it's not hard to stretch they are working together. [quote]With Quria Savathûn is in a more advantageous position than Xivu, having the ability to Take.[/quote] The ability to take is in three potential hands right now. Whoever holds the tablets of ruin (which we left on the dreadnaught) will now have the ability to take. Quria is confirmed through Toland if he is to be believed (his warning during Forsaken was not to trust him as it might not be him) and the relayed messages on curse cycle weeks all point that Quria's only real involvement is the pyramidion strikes, but Savathun is also at a disadvantage since the curse cycle is not the primary focus. Her worms are still needing the sacrifices and we aren't involved in that area anymore. So the question now is- what ways can Quria, Xivu with the biggest army (this needs to be confirmed outside of the DC) and showing in the dreaming city, help get her plans off the ground? Because her brood is locked right now. Her sacrificial engine is running on low efficiency and the worms require more acts of cunning from her and more acts of war from Xivu. Xivu is the immediate threat to most likely come after us or both sisters might come after us.

I hope you don't mind me spontaneously switching to this format, really got to break down some problems I have with the above response. [quote]That's incorrect. House of Light is not sure in for guardian support. Calus has literally ordered us into combat arenas and tried to kill us with one of his robots in the raid. Both are hostile until a pact is formed. And none have been formed.[/quote] That point about the House of Light seems rather peculiar given Mithrax actively works with two Guardian in the field, or the fact that his own stated philosophy (courtesy of 'The Queenbreaker' lore tab.) is to "fight for Great Machine together" As for Calus.... No, he is definitely non-hostile at the moment. Pretty much everyone sends us into combat arena's and we attacked the robot first, if you recall. Which we promptly destroyed, to which Calus celebrated and awarded us with loot. [quote]If you do not know that Oryx saw his vulnerability and knew of Xivu's ambush attempt wouldn't be far behind? Then perhaps you should go reread the various stories yourself. It's definitely one of the D1 stories that the whole reason the dreadnaught exists was to protect Oryx's ascendant realm from the vulnerability the vex presented.[/quote] In this situation you I asked for citation and you simply responded with 'go look it up'. Not quite what I would refer to as an adequate response, but I dug up the entry in question for you. 'XL: An Emperor For All Outcomes'. Where we read the following; ------------------------------------------------------------- Out of love for her brother, which was the same as the desire to kill him, Savathûn leaked a secret to Xivu Arath — ‘listen, Xivu, Oryx’s throne world has been compromised. You can cut your way in from here.’ Xivu Arath used this to plan an ambush. But Oryx was too canny. The Taken King said to his Court, the High War, “My throne world is vulnerable. I am going to move it.” ------------------------------------------------------------- Which, if you pay attention, has two rather interesting points. One, Savathun prompted Xivu to plan an ambush by telling her that Oryx's throne world had been compromised. Two, that Oryx did not make any mention of Xivu at all. He simply saw a vulnerability and corrected it, unknowingly putting an end to any chance of an ambush. [Quote]You're getting your facts mixed in with the theory. Quria is widely rumored to be able to take. It's even hinted at in the lore, but if you read closely enough? That's not the case.[/quote] Except it is rather explicitly shown to us in game. Remember those really odd rituals the Taken seemed to be performing to pacify the Vex and corral them into Blights? That right there is Quria. Not only does it explain how the Vex were pacified so easily, it also explains why the method of Taking is so odd in this instance. Quria is the one leading the incursion on the Vex Gate Network mind you. This is clearly one of those moments where Quria is attempting something with the little will that it has left to it. Now, it is unclear what the circumstances between Quria and Savathun are during this incursion, so I'll avoid spouting off my preferred interpretation. [quote]Remember the power to take is a tablet power gained by making a pact with the Deep itself like Oryx did. Which we have not recovered our weapon with his heart in it. Which is why months after the red legion hit? We saw a Taken Phalanx (strike LoS) appear in the EDZ. Chronological order dictated this was done with the only beings which can utilize actual sword logic as a vex mind cannot wield a weapon to kill. This is the fatal logic that goes hand in hand with the power of the Deep which is something Quria does not possess. She merely simulates when you read closely enough.[/quote] The strike doesn't take place months after the Red Legion hit, unless you want to cite an actual source for that. Hell, to my memory you can launch the strike before you even retake the City. As for the point about Sword Logic, the Vex had no issue exploiting it to gain power in Oryx's throne world. Sword Logic does not depend purely on utilizing a weapon to kill, simply the act of killing. However, the Sword Logic does apply to weapons. I would also point to the fact that the Tablets themselves are not linked to the power to Take, they merely gave Oryx the ability to step into the Deep and to commune with it. You could argue that perhaps there is something to be said in relation to the Dreamsbane armour and possessing a similar purpose with the Pyramid ship. [quote]Actually, since it was Xivu in pursuit of the dreadnaught following the ambush failure? She would have seen the power displayed by Oryx against the Dreaming City and it is her offspring attempting to steal the relic throughout the mission. Savathun was preoccupied elsewhere it would seem because Savathun's brood reference is only one: Dul Incaru. Xivu was all over the place which is why it is more likely her personal war against the awoken we are facing. Not Savathun though, again, it's not hard to stretch they are working together.[/quote] Two quotes from the 'Boots of the Great Hunt' lore tab; ------------------------------------------------------------- But today I have a visitor. She reminds me of the [King]. Yet subtler. Nothing announces her arrival. Her will does not flow through the system in open challenge against her enemies. I can tell this is not a part of her grand design. This is an introduction. She is at play. ------------------------------------------------------------- Here we see Savathun taking up Riven's reigns and planting the seeds for what we now know as the Dreaming City curse. And by your own logic Xivu would be plundering the Dreadnought for it's secrets, not the relics of the Awoken. If there is some truth to be gleaned from the lies in Truth to Power, I believe it is that the objective of the incursion is to gain access to the Distributary. Whether this is for a wider application of the loop for use in the creation of a murder battery I cannot say. Now, it's also funny that you state that Dul Incaru is the only reference to Savathun's brood while it appears that she is the one in charge of the assault. Food for thought. Claiming Xivu Arath is truly the one who pushed into the Dreaming City because her children are present as Taken and non-Taken is like saying that Savathun was in charge of the Court of Oryx because her child was a member. [quote]The ability to take is in three potential hands right now. Whoever holds the tablets of ruin (which we left on the dreadnaught) will now have the ability to take. Quria is confirmed through Toland if he is to be believed (his warning during Forsaken was not to trust him as it might not be him) and the relayed messages on curse cycle weeks all point that Quria's only real involvement is the pyramidion strikes, but Savathun is also at a disadvantage since the curse cycle is not the primary focus. Her worms are still needing the sacrifices and we aren't involved in that area anymore.[/quote] The Tablets of Ruin are, once again, only a means to commune with the Deep. It still needs to grant you the power to Take. The relayed messages also have questionable reliability, but the presence of Taken who serve Quria do point to the Taken Mind having some involvement in the Dreaming City. Which makes sense given how the loop appears to be Vex based, whether through some application of tribute or simply being enforced by the power of an Ahamkara. I also don't see how Savathun is at a disadvantage. We only have reason to believe that two individuals have the power to Take as of now. Savathun and Quria. Quria is only on that list because of the Io questline and that it is undoubtedly the method Savathun used to attain this power. [quote]So the question now is- what ways can Quria, Xivu with the biggest army (this needs to be confirmed outside of the DC) and showing in the dreaming city, help get her plans off the ground? Because her brood is locked right now. Her sacrificial engine is running on low efficiency and the worms require more acts of cunning from her and more acts of war from Xivu. Xivu is the immediate threat to most likely come after us or both sisters might come after us.[/quote] This is purely speculative. Though I will respond to the last point. Xivu Arath is by no means an IMMEDIATE threat. Savathun, however, is. Just look at the Festering Core strike. Savathun is preparing for something larger. She has also worked her reach through every part of our system, whether it's the realm of the Nine, Calus's Chronicon or even the Throne of the Awoken Queen. The Witch-Queen is not someone to be trifled with. Not to mention trading Savathun for Xivu after all this build up with Savathun when Xivu only got a few name drops in the subtitle of some bosses in the Dreaming City missions would be the biggest anti-climax since we realized that the Uldren cutscene wasn't going to be relevant any time soon.

I have no issues with format. Seems to help keep the dialogue centered. [quote]That point about the House of Light seems rather peculiar given Mithrax actively works with two Guardian in the field, or the fact that his own stated philosophy (courtesy of 'The Queenbreaker' lore tab.) is to "fight for Great Machine together" As for Calus.... No, he is definitely non-hostile at the moment. Pretty much everyone sends us into combat arena's and we attacked the robot first, if you recall. Which we promptly destroyed, to which Calus celebrated and awarded us with loot.[/quote] House of light working with a few guardians is no surprise as many guardians have spoken about it like the drifter. The point here is all Guardians or a truce between the Last City and the faction. Calus is absolutely hostile. Given his lore, he will only remain interested so long as we operate within his realm and consider his offerings. There is far too much linking the Deep with only him and the other component is the Cabal are involved in areas by means of a ruler straight out of the chronicles of riddick. Hiis aim is quite literally to simply die to the threat he saw and to convince all others of that fate. He is simply put chaotic neutral. Which can mean a lot of bad scenarios any way you slice it. Please note it doesn't mean he is harmful in the immediate sense. Just dangerous overall with the unpredictability to save himself before anything else. [quote]Which, if you pay attention, has two rather interesting points. One, Savathun prompted Xivu to plan an ambush by telling her that Oryx's throne world had been compromised. Two, that Oryx did not make any mention of Xivu at all. He simply saw a vulnerability and corrected it, unknowingly putting an end to any chance of an ambush.[/quote] The Hive exist, by nature, to the sword logic. Upon finding the successful scenario where Oryx knew his throne world was compromised by his son? He banished his son and moved it to avoid the ambush. Any person with knowledge like the Hive would not keep something that precious in such a state. You move it to avoid the threat. And also? Oryx knew Savathun knew. Her observation capabilities are her strongest trait and that is why she is cunning which Oryx has been shown, time and again, to outwit both of them as King. The real question this presents is if we never get involved? Would Oryx pursue Xivu or Savathun first? [quote]Remember those really odd rituals the Taken seemed to be performing to pacify the Vex and corral them into Blights? That right there is Quria.[/quote] Testing of Hive magic to attempt the power to Take is one thing, but there are many possibilities standing right next to that scenario. We do see some taken entities emerge, but Savathun is more of a mage then Quria. Much more experienced as well. Quria's involvement and really the Taken on IO due to the Traveler light is more Savathun with the power to Take because of one really big fatal flaw if Savathun gave the power to Take directly to Quria: Quria could now Take Savathun or Xivu and control them. It's the same weakness why even the highest-ranking officers under Oryx never had the power to Take. You give yourself a vulnerability for no reason. [quote]But today I have a visitor. She reminds me of the [King]. Yet subtler. Nothing announces her arrival. Her will does not flow through the system in open challenge against her enemies. I can tell this is not a part of her grand design. This is an introduction. She is at play.[/quote] It is funny you bring up the lore on the hunter boots because it was there that I first started considering Xivu Arath as the grand designer for the dreaming city due to the larger force capability behind her. Savathun is definitely cunning though and involved with Dul Incaru, but Riven is a paracausal entity like Quria with interesting power to even resist the full force of their taken aspects which leads me to believe the power of taking is being diluted like our D1 to D2 transition and what does that mean for us if worse comes to worst? [quote]The Tablets of Ruin are, once again, only a means to commune with the Deep. It still needs to grant you the power to Take.[/quote] Oryx gained power by killing Savathun and Xivu in their original forms. There is no manual for the communion and frankly speaking? It is the power to simply communicate and bargain the power with the Deep like a ritual or prayer wherein the Deep response to the issuer of the communion. Any direction that goes? The process and end result are the same answer: There is no way to know who actually holds the power or maybe no one does and the red legion (LoS strike) is merely an extension of the Deep responding with a single offering for the necessary ritual. An often overlooked example I myself remind others and I am the Darkness has been on Earth at the same time as our revival. It has been observant and yet, outside of our influence. If that power is simply waiting for something or someone to initiate it? Like a tablet of ruin ritual? Then we have the fronts for the home war which will occur later in D3 most likely. Or maybe anyone brings their army(-ies) to any planet and we see power as we did on the Dreadnaught. [quote]This is purely speculative. Though I will respond to the last point. Xivu Arath is by no means an IMMEDIATE threat. Savathun, however, is.[/quote] The lore points us in a direction of conflict sooner or later. The speculation is fine as it keeps us focused on the capabilities of the region. As for Savathun versus Xivu- Savathun does not create conflict. Xivu creates it everywhere. If Savathun opens it up? It is because she knows her throne is safe and it will be to our downfall eventually. Savathun is a ranged strategist who stays invisible. Xivu is the tactical one who will bring the war. [quote]Not to mention trading Savathun for Xivu after all this build up with Savathun when Xivu only got a few name drops in the subtitle of some bosses in the Dreaming City missions would be the biggest anti-climax since we realized that the Uldren cutscene wasn't going to be relevant any time soon.[/quote] I personally would rather fight a Hive god of war than a silly strategist. Savathun entering combat would be a simple, "I'm the guardian who killed Oryx. Begone and bring me the real warrior of your family." climax. Which is boring. Xivu not having so many drops works in the favor that you need to bring the very best you got against a creature who will use her throne world to rock ours. Xivu is a clash of titans/gods. Savathun is simply clash of the strategy. Both are fun, but both pull to different things and I personally lean to the combat side of things.

[quote]But this was a lie. Auryx had killed Savathûn his sibling and Xivu Arath his sibling, and he had the sword logic of killing them. Auryx the First Navigator set upon his god with his sword and his words, and cut Akka to pieces, and took from those pieces the [b]secret of calling upon the Deep. He wrote this secret on a set of tablets, which he called the Tablets of Ruin[/b]. And he wore them about his waist. Then Auryx said, “Now I may speak to the Deep, the beautiful final shape. I will be King of Shapes. I will learn all the secrets of our destiny.”[/quote] <Tablets are the means to communion, not the means to Take.>