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1/4/2014 5:13:33 AM
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Yep, it's hugely entertaining. I'm very glad they're making a season 2.
Also I laugh at all the edgy people in here calling popular shows 'shit.'
English
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[spoiler]You remember that one part where L rigged the whole building with microphones? The entrance was the one place that happened to [u]not[/u] have mics. Light and Misa made their plans there. [/spoiler] That's what I heard from others which I think is BS.
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由The Great DanTej編輯： 1/4/2014 5:21:49 AM[quote] edgy people in here calling popular shows 'shit.'[/quote]Do you even know what edgy means? to be fair as buzzwords it's become a bit of a catch all, but it is completely inapplicable in this situaion. Furthermore, there are plenty of valid reasons to hate SAO that have nothing to do with it's popularity: -marry sue and garry stu characters -exceptionally poor pacing -wish fulfillment -deus ex machina coupled with just poor writing in general -an almost complete lack of understanding of MMOs I could go on but i've said enough, and I'd really rather not have to re watch it to ge exact details.
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[quote] but it is completely inapplicable in this situaion.[/quote]Not really.[quote] Furthermore, there are plenty of valid reasons to hate SAO that have nothing to do with it's popularity:[/quote]To dislike a show =/= it being ''shit.''[quote] -marry sue and garry stu characters[/quote]wat [quote] -exceptionally poor pacing[/quote]On that one I'll disagree. Hell, an entire arc gets done in only like 12 episodes... that's pretty darned quick.[quote] -wish fulfillment[/quote]wat [quote] -deus ex machina coupled with just poor writing in general[/quote]Not even fans of SAO like the second half of season 1. But calling the entire show ''shit'' is still just dumb.[quote] -an almost complete lack of understanding of MMOs[/quote]wat
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由The Great DanTej編輯： 1/4/2014 6:01:01 AM[quote]Not really.[/quote]Let me tell you what edgy is: DmC: Devil may Cry's donte Let me tell you what isn't edgy: Dislking a show because it's shit Completely inapplicable. [quote]To dislike a show =/= it being ''shit.''[/quote]Should've been more clear there, but I clarified above. [quote]wat[/quote]Kirito has practically no character flaws, is essentially the chosen one (because he's just so naturally good a what he does) and basically pulls his own harem becaue why the hell not? Asuna has practically no flaws and is also naturally great at what she does and is also rich and also lovs kirito because why the hell not. The entire thing just reads like a bad fanfic "i get trapped in a world where my only talent, video games, makes me a goddamn hero who gets all the girls, and one of which is a sickly ojou who's all over me - also we have an AI daughter because why the hell not?" - wish fulfillment [quote]On that one I'll disagree. Hell, an entire arc gets done in only like 12 episodes... that's pretty darned quick.[/quote]Did you mean agree? anyway, cramming the entire arc into episodes, but also shoving side stories from the novel in just makes for jumpy pacing - i recall it taking several episodes to clear one floor, but then they skip ahead tens of floors, and they do this several times - on top of that there's little rising tension, which is especially apparent when you realize that it barely has anyhing to do with being an MMO (they could simply grind and min-max to the point where nothing can kill them, but nope) also one thing that i recall pissing me off, was the huge build up of one of the floow bosses, only to have it killed off screen, and then suddenly the final boss is revealed to be with them the whole time, and so they just have the final battle then and there. [quote] Not even fans of SAO like the second half of season 1. But calling the entire show ''shit'' is still just dumb.[/quote]Yet i'm only talking about he first half - the deus ex machina was something along the lines of "immortal object mode on" in the final battle - kirito dies, but then magically comes back and is immortal and just wins then and there. I know a lot of this sounds like rambling, it's been a while since i watched it and for most media the only thing i remember about them is "it was shit" or "it was not shit", so elaborating on something that I barely cared for at the time is tricky to say the least.
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由burritosenior編輯： 1/4/2014 6:30:27 AM[quote]Let me tell you what edgy is: DmC: Devil may Cry's donte Let me tell you what isn't edgy: Dislking a show because it's shit Completely inapplicable.[/quote]Careful. You're going to cut yourself on that edge. [quote]Kirito has practically no character flaws, is essentially the chosen one (because he's just so naturally good a what he does)[/quote]I was going to ask if you had seen the first episode, but it's clear from that that you haven't even seen it since even the very first episode focuses largely on his flaws. And... SAO was a game. Some people are going to be really good at it since it is a game. So essentially you're complaining that the show focused on the person that was the best at the game instead of somebody that was average at it. And that is, quite literally, retarded. [quote] and basically pulls his own harem becaue why the hell not?[/quote]People that have their life saved by someone like that someone? How absurd! [quote] Asuna has practically no flaws and is also naturally great at what she does and is also rich and also lovs kirito because why the hell not.[/quote]You have absolutely zero handling on the concept of cause and effect.[quote] "i get trapped in a world where my only talent, video games, makes me a goddamn hero[/quote]You mean folks think that the people with the ability to save their lives are heroes? NO WAI DOOD DATS BAD RITING[quote] [quote]also we have an AI daughter because why the hell not?"[/quote]Or because she was a program designed to monitor their psychological state to maintain their well-being and deliberately idolized Kirito and Asuna because they were the only two people to find actual happiness in this world where Yui was losing her sanity due to her inability to help those she was monitoring. You seriously must not have seen more than a plot summary or something. [quote]Did you mean agree?[/quote]No. [quote]cramming the entire arc into episodes,[/quote]Because there is something else to put the content in other than episodes, right? [quote] but also shoving side stories from the novel in just makes for jumpy pacing [/quote]Because covering everything that was written is a bad thing and anime should learn to just skip over most of it, right? [quote]- i recall it taking several episodes to clear one floor, but then they skip ahead tens of floors, and they do this several times [/quote]When relevant things happen during certain floors, they get more air time. The story isn't all about clearing floors. It was about the characters and developing them. So yeah, they skipped floors to get to the next part of the story. Pretty sad if that's what you're grasping at.[quote] - on top of that there's little rising tension, [/quote]Not true, and that isn't a valid opinion anyways since you clearly didn't watch the show based on your earlier posts... [quote] it barely has anyhing to do with being an MMO[/quote]lolwut[quote] (they could simply grind and min-max to the point where nothing can kill them, but nope)[/quote]People did. Guilds had leveling quotas. And even after the years in SAO Kirito was like what- level 96 at the end? Just because it doesn't work like World of Warcraft doesn't mean it doesn't work. [quote] also one thing that i recall pissing me off, was the huge build up of one of the floow bosses, only to have it killed off screen, and then suddenly the final boss is revealed to be with them the whole time, and so they just have the final battle then and there.[/quote]The boss right before the final boss appears... are you talking about the Skull Reaper and Heathcliff? Because [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPvSqVnlTPU]you see the Skull Reaper killed[/url]... in one of the most epic scenes in the show. So again... why are you commenting on this show when you haven't watched it? [quote] Yet i'm only talking about he first half - the deus ex machina was something along the lines of "immortal object mode on" in the final battle - kirito dies, but then magically comes back and is immortal and just wins then and there.[/quote]... There's a major discussion about that in the show and what its implications are. That was a great way for it to end, and you just didn't understand it apparently... or you didn't watch that part, again.
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Firstly, it's laughable that you have to resort to "nah you just didn't watch it" [quote]Careful. You're going to cut yourself on that edge.[/quote] Are you trying to be ironic, pretending to be retarded, or just don't understand hat you're saying? Either way, stop doing that. [quote]I was going to ask if you had seen the first episode, but it's clear from that that you haven't even seen it since even the very first episode focuses largely on his flaws.[/quote] And then promptly moves on focuses on gary stu doing gary stu things. [quote]And... SAO was a game. Some people are going to be really good at it since it is a game. So essentially you're complaining that the show focused on the person that was the best at the game instead of somebody that was average at it. [/quote]Two problems with that: 1. it lessens the weight of any conflict as we already know that gary's da bestest (furthermore, what does he actually do to become the best? pining it down to natural talent is just a hand wave, and having offscreen training messes with the pacing, on top of being a hand wave) 2. It's still wish fulfilment, he's not the best because it makes for an interesting story, he's the best because that's the easiest kind of person to use as a self insert. [quote]And that is, quite literally, retarded.[/quote] You literally do not know what literally means. please don't try to turn literally into buzzword, you're killing the language and clearly incompetent with buzzwords that already exist. [quote]People that have their life saved by someone like that someone? How absurd![/quote]Does everyone fall in love with the firemen who rescu them, the policemen who protect them ,and the doctors who perform life saving surgery on them? no. But of course, being so good at a video game that cute girls fall in love with you, is pretty much the definition of wish fulfillment. [quote]You have absolutely zero handling on the concept of cause and effect.[/quote]I recall her being not that interested, to suddenly becoming "charmed by his quirkiness" to doing everything a loving family does bar virtual sex. If there is cause and effect going on, it's poorly paced. ...nothing to say about the unlikeliness of the beautiful rich girl existing and playing videogames? (specifically the game that self insert Stu is great at?) [quote]You mean folks think that the people with the ability to save their lives are heroes? NO WAI DOOD DATS BAD RITING[/quote]So uh, do you [i]literally[/i] not know what wish fulfillment is? [quote]Or because she was a program designed to monitor their psychological state to maintain their well-being and deliberately idolized Kirito and Asuna because they were the only two people to find actual happiness in this world where Yui was losing her sanity due to her inability to help those she was monitoring. You seriously must not have seen more than a plot summary or something.[/quote]I remember that fishing guy being pretty happy I remember Klein being happy, I remember the black merchant guy being happy, I remember the dragon girl being happy and Elizabeth(?) being happy. Not only did I watch the whole damn show, but I really didn't see any decent explanation for the pretend parents thing. [quote]Because there is something else to put the content in other than episodes, right?[/quote]Tht was a typo, I meant 12 episodes. But actually yes, they could've devoted the entire first 12 episodes adapting the fist book, and then release the side stories as OVAs (you know, what the light novel series basically did), instead we have oddly placed filler episodes and janky pacing. [quote]When relevant things happen during certain floors, they get more air time. The story isn't all about clearing floors. It was about the characters and developing them. So yeah, they skipped floors to get to the next part of the story. Pretty sad if that's what you're grasping at.[/quote]which explains all the development that goes on in he background instead of on screen right? But I digress, if you want to develop characters then jumping a year ahead, or several months, multiple times, is still bad pacing. [quote]Not true, and that isn't a valid opinion anyways since you clearly didn't watch the show based on your earlier posts...[/quote]Am I being trolled? I honestly cannot tell anymore - please tell me, are you pulling my leg or [i]literally[/i] delusional? [quote]lolwut[/quote]The only reason it's an MMO is to contrive a reason as to why the main character's skill at videogames an be used to make him be the hero, without essentially doing any hard work - and also to do a random deus ex machin and almost certainly to give the author a literary excuse to take the story in any direction. I mean, the actual MMO parts (that player killer gang, the guilds, the player economy) are sidelined so much that you could reasonably pass off as a generic fantasy. I should probably watch log horizon sometime soon as apparently that does the MMO thing well, but again i digress. [quote]People did. Guilds had leveling quotas. And even after the years in SAO Kirito was like what- level 96 at the end? Just because it doesn't work like World of Warcraft doesn't mean it doesn't work.[/quote]I'm sure I addressed this above - I dunno, I've spent too much time on this and am probably going incoherent... [quote]The boss right before the final boss appears... are you talking about the Skull Reaper and Heathcliff? Because you see the Skull Reaper killed... in one of the most epic scenes in the show.[/quote]I distinctly remember the group going into the boss room at the end of an episode, shitting themselves, beginning the battle...and then the episode's over Next episode, do we get to see an amazing boss battle (and maybe even have some animation!?!?!?!) No! the monster is dead within the first few minutes of the episode - that's not [i]literally[/i] killed offscreen I admit, but It's practically the same thing. [quote]So again... why are you commenting on this show when you haven't watched it?[/quote]Actually at that specific episode I considered dropping it altogether, but a friend of mine who doesn't watch any anime at all picked it up, so i kept going just to explain why it's shit to him. I certainly did watch the show, I can even link you to my MAL list....hell, I could dig through my irc logs and show you how i bitched with my friends about it, more fun was had shitting on the show than there was watching it. So I repeat, are you trolling or just delusional? [quote]... There's a major discussion about that in the show and what its implications are. That was a great way for it to end, and you just didn't understand it apparently... or you didn't watch that part, again.[/quote]The bit where Stu and Sue are in the sky watching the whole world collapse while the creator of the game monologues? yeah I zoned out at that part. I'm still not completely used to my laptop, forgive me for any other typos.
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[quote]Firstly, it's laughable that you have to resort to "nah you just didn't watch it"[/quote]Saying something is 'laughable' doesn't make it suddenly untrue. Watch the show before you criticize it.[quote] [quote]Are you trying to be ironic, pretending to be retarded, or just don't understand hat you're saying? Either way, stop doing that.[/quote]Ooo, attacking the person. as edgy as ever. Keep it up. [quote]And then promptly moves on focuses on gary stu doing gary stu things.[/quote]>Says he is right >Is presently with evidence showing he is wrong >Says he is right anyways >Continues to derp for many more words[quote] 1. it lessens the weight of any conflict as we already know that gary's da bestest[/quote]Yes, you know Kirito is the best. Saying it 'lessens the weight of any conflict' is rather dumb though, don't you think? He typically has three kinds of scenarios. The first is that he shows off how badass he is and destroys. The second is where he needs to protect other people. The third where he loses/almost loses. The first does not happen as often as you are implying.[quote] (furthermore, what does he actually do to become the best? [/quote]Grinds, and he has the skill because he was an experienced Nerve Gear user even by the time the Beta for SAO came out. He was in line day one and did nothing but play it. These are things you should know.[quote] 2. It's still wish fulfilment, [/quote]Keep derping. [quote]he's not the best because it makes for an interesting story, he's the best because that's the easiest kind of person to use as a self insert.[/quote]He's the best, and the story focuses on that person because the best person is typically the one to win a game. It's absolutely ridiculous for you to say that is a bad thing. What- should the best player suddenly die and an average joe wins all the sudden? Now THAT would be poor storytelling. Stop with the strawman, mate. [quote]You literally do not know what literally means. please don't try to turn literally into buzzword, you're killing the language and clearly incompetent with buzzwords that already exist.[/quote]I know what it means, and what you said is still retarded. And attacking the person posting is not something somebody in the right has to do. Just throwing that out there. You're talking about a show you clearly haven't watched, then grasping at straws, then attacking the person showing these things. You're out of ideas by the first post. [quote] [quote]Does everyone fall in love with the firemen who rescu them, the policemen who protect them ,and the doctors who perform life saving surgery on them? no.[/quote]And not everybody that is saved by Kirito falls in love with him. But the story shows ones that do. Again, stop derping. You're seriously being ridiculous.[quote] [quote]I recall her being not that interested, to suddenly becoming "charmed by his quirkiness" to doing everything a loving family does bar virtual sex.[/quote]Or you just don't understanding storytelling. [quote] If there is cause and effect going on, it's poorly paced.[/quote]See above.[quote] ...nothing to say about the unlikeliness of the beautiful rich girl existing and playing videogames?[/quote]What is there to say? It's unlikely that anybody with money plays video games? Because that seems like the opposite would be true. Asuna didn't play MMOs/ video games, but her brother had the Nerve Gear. He wasn't around so Asuna tried it out since there was a new game out that day her brother got hold of. Then she got trapped. So let's chalk up that little 'point' of your to ignorance again.[quote] [quote]o uh, do you [i]literally[/i] not know what wish fulfillment is?[/quote]>Makes claim >Called out as ridiculous >Tries to divert attention by using improper English >Continues to derp away [quote]I remember that fishing guy being pretty happy I remember Klein being happy, I remember the black merchant guy being happy, I remember the dragon girl being happy and Elizabeth(?) being happy.[/quote]Having moments of happiness =/= having a happy life. Again, this is discussed at length. You'd know that had you watched the show.[quote] [quote] But actually yes, they could've devoted the entire first 12 episodes adapting the fist book, and then release the side stories as OVAs (you know, what the light novel series basically did), instead we have oddly placed filler episodes and janky pacing.[/quote]You want a show with poor pacing? Try Attack on Titan. Hugely entertaining, but with terrible pacing. SAO? Not even close to poor pacing. I guess we can chalk that one up to opinion, but I have to admit I can't see how anybody could think otherwise. [quote] which explains all the development that goes on in he background instead of on screen right? [/quote]All the character development that happens off screen? You mean the... little to none? Then yes, that is right. Good job.[quote] But I digress, if you want to develop characters then jumping a year ahead, or several months, multiple times, is still bad pacing.[/quote]Not when you have a grasp on what is actually happening it isn't. But we can't all have that, I suppose. [quote]Am I being trolled? I honestly cannot tell anymore - please tell me, are you pulling my leg or [i]literally[/i] delusional?[/quote] No, you're being called out for posting dumb things. Calling people 'delusional' is not the response to such things that a person in the right does. Just throwing that out there. [quote]The only reason it's an MMO is to contrive a reason as to why the main character's skill at videogames an be used to make him be the hero, without essentially doing any hard work - and also to do a random deus ex machin and almost certainly to give the author a literary excuse to take the story in any direction.[/quote]Or the reason it is in an MMO is because... you know... that is the entire premise of the show and what everything and everyone revolves around... I'll admit, that's definitely your biggest derp yet.[quote] I mean, the actual MMO parts (that player killer gang, the guilds, the player economy) are sidelined so much that you could reasonably pass off as a generic fantasy. I should probably watch log horizon sometime soon as apparently that does the MMO thing well, but again i digress.[/quote]Log Horizon focuses on that kind of thing, yes. That is a show about politics more than having an actual goal. As SAO focuses on other things, it pays little mind to 'the economy' and such. It simply isn't relevant to what the story is going for. Saying that a show is ''shit'' for not having that kind of thing, however, is just silly. [quote]I distinctly remember the group going into the boss room at the end of an episode, shitting themselves, beginning the battle...and then the episode's over Next episode, do we get to see an amazing boss battle (and maybe even have some animation!?!?!?!) No! the monster is dead within the first few minutes of the episode - that's not [i]literally[/i] killed offscreen I admit, but It's practically the same thing.[/quote]The fight lasted as long as it needed to. It was one of the most epic moments in the show, and something pretty much everybody enjoyed watching. Complaining that SAO didn't pull a Frieza and make the fight last 35357387 episodes seems silly. SAO covered what the source material had, and did so expertly. Dragging it out with filler just really wasn't its thing. Oddly enough, that's exactly what most people would say makes a GOOD anime. But I digress. [quote]Actually at that specific episode I considered dropping it altogether, but a friend of mine who doesn't watch any anime at all picked it up, so i kept going just to explain why it's shit to him. I certainly did watch the show, I can even link you to my MAL list....hell, I could dig through my irc logs and show you how i bitched with my friends about it, more fun was had shitting on the show than there was watching it. So I repeat, are you trolling or just delusional?[/quote]No, you're being called out for posting dumb things. Calling people 'delusional' is not the response to such things that a person in the right does. Just throwing that out there. [quote]The bit where Stu and Sue are in the sky watching the whole world collapse while the creator of the game monologues? yeah I zoned out at that part.[/quote]A number of parts, though that is one of the most important. So admitting you don't know what happened... right after criticizing what happened. Stunning. Are you done arguing just to argue?
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Alright, Burrito, DanTej, you're both pretty, but please, shut the hell up! However, I am forced to take DanTej's side in this argument. Allow me to restate his thesis in a somewhat less insulting, and perhaps easier to follow manner. [b][u]1. Regarding Kirito and Asuna in relation to Gary Stue and Mary Sue, respectively, and their roles in "wish fulfillment"[/u][/b] Let's start with defining Gary/Mary Stue/Sue. The aforementioned terms refer to a character that lacks any substantial flaws or problems involving strength or inter-personal relationships. Such characters are therefor seen as absolutely perfect to the point that, from a standpoint of writing, they are flawed beyond measure. Now, moving on to wish fulfillment. A "wish fulfillment" character is a character that is written in a way as to attract a general audience that wish to 'become' that character, in a sense. However, this is not in the way that they should aspire to be that character, but in the way that they believe that that character's life is the way that their life should go. Now, let's talk about Kirito. What do we know about Kirito at the very start? Well, not much, really. At the end of the first episode, we don't see a ton of huge problems. He's a gamer who got trapped within SAO, like all the rest. However, he has a preference towards being a lone wolf, generally shunning more than one partner at a time. Furthermore, he was a beta tester for SAO. This means that he has access to certain knowledge of the game [b]up to a certain point[/b]. Keep that in mind for later. Now after the second episode, we still don't see a ton of massive problems with Kirito's character. We've skipped ahead about two months, but as we haven't yet left the first floor, we can assume that noting substantial has occurred. I'll address this further once I begin on the actual pacing of the show. Anyhow, by the end of this episode, we've met Asuna, who's been rather tolerant towards Kirito so far, and Kirito has become a solo player and a 'beater', as his knowledge from the beta test is far more extensive than any other beta tester. Now, here's the first major problem that I have. The fact that Kirito knows so much about the game beforehand. Yes, he was a beta tester, but he happened to be the very best out of all of them, presumably far surpassing them. [b]He was good at the game, the very first game of it's kind, mind you, [i]before it even came out.[/i][/b] Yes, he was a beta tester, so he's have a bit of a leg up over most other players, but the fact that he was insanely good at a completely new type of game from the get-go isn't explained beyond the fact that he just sorta was. Now, episode three. I've got nor real problems with this episode, bar one. Kirito has now begun to establish himself as the all-powerful Gary Stu at this point. He's now level 40, double the level of the average player. How? Because he's good at the game. But again, how? Because he just is. He's just written to be good at SAO, with the only explanation being that he just is. Episode three. Now Kirito begins his ever-growing harem. First subject: Silica. Now, Let's look at the history between the two. Kirito saves Silica after her pet dragon, Pina, is killed by two monsters. Suddenly, Silica is absolutely smitten with Kirito. These two have known each other for all of three hours, and yet Silica's apparently already fallen in love with him. Furthermore, Kirito has descended further into his Gary Stu-ness, having increased by over 30 levels over the course of the past three months. Why? Again because he's just good at the game. Swallow that explanation. Let's skip ahead to Liz's episode. Kirito's and Liz's epic romance, in a nutshell: Kirito asks for sword, Kirito and Liz go to mountain for metal. Liz acts like idiot and gets them stuck in a hole. Liz gets comforted by Kirito and find's the warmth of Kirito's hand to be something 'real' within the virtual world (as a side not, is this just Kirito's hand? But that's aside the point). The two eventually get out and ZING! Guess who's in love with Kirito? Now, lets look at the stories of Liz and Silica together. Both fall in love with Kirito over the course of less than 24 hours. First off, 24 hours is not enough time for a romance to develop. Plain and simple. Liz and Silica share less than 30 minutes of screen time with Kirito, and yet they become convinced that they are in love with him. Now, if they'd gotten over it by the end of the series, I'd understand. But they don't. At the end of the series, they're lamenting at how they cannot be with Kirito because Asuna got there first. Speaking of Asuna, let's talk about her. Asuna just so happens to be the most attractive girl in Aincrad (going by the description in the light novel), and on top of that, she's likely the second best player in the game behind Kirito. On top of this, she comes from an extremely rich family in the real world. Already we have ourselves a Mary Sue. Now, regarding episodes 5 and 6. Kirito and Asuna, the latter of which has established herself as the Vice-commander of the KoB, are now completely at odds with each other, a far cry from their relationship at the end of episode 2. Why? Well, aside from the fact that Kirito takes issue with Asuna's disregard for the strips of coding commonly referred to as NPCs (seriously, what's the big deal here?), it seems that the writers wanted to write her as a tsundere. We're never really given the specifics of where Kirito and Asuna began to not see eye-to-eye. But anyhow, these two episodes are the only time we're ever given any development on Kirito's and Asuna's relationship is given any development, and that's sidetracked with a wholly unimportant murder mystery-type thing. But at the end of this little vignette, the pair are well on their way to becoming a couple, and it's fairly obvious in episode 7 that Asuna's basically head over heels for Kirito, and within three episodes after that, they're married and 16.5ing to their heart's content. Now, I'd go on about their idyllic relationship and my issues with that, but I feel that I've gone on about this long enough. Moving on. [u][b]2. Pacing[/b][/u] I'll try to be a bit more brief here. The main issue with pacing here is that, well, vast chunks of time are simply skipped over. And the time skips aren't at all uniform, either. First we jump ahead two months, and then we've jumped another six months. What happened in those six months? Surely you don't mean to say that [i]nothing[/i] of interest happened within that timeframe? And before we know it, we're already past floor 50. Barring the two or three floors that we saw involving the side stories, what happened on the other 49 floors? We're just expected to swallow that nothing happened in between all of the little side stories and the main plot, because the plot so demands it. [u][b]3. Deus ex machina and poor writing[/b][/u] Before I begin, let's define deus ex machina. A deus ex machina is when a character suddenly gains a power or ability out of the blue in order to defeat an enemy or solve a problem. Now, about Kirito's victory over Heathcliff. First off, he's shielded by Asuna, who somehow managed to ignore the fact that she was paralyzed. How? We don't know. Deus ex machina x1. Second, Kirito's HP reaches zero. We even see it happen. However, Kirito simply ignores that fact, somehow delaying his own death long enough to stab and kill Heathcliff. How? Again, we don't know. Deus ex machina x2. Now, aside from deus ex machina, poor pacing, and Mary Sue/Gary Stue (all of which contribute to bad writing), what was the villain's motive in the end? He doesn't know. Or, to put it better, he forgot. Really? The guy who was lurking in the shadows, controlling the very fabric of the game, essentially had no motive? This compromises the entirety of the plot up to this point, because none of it had a point. Now, I'd rather not continue with this, so I'll assume that I've made my point.
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[quote]Now, let's talk about Kirito. What do we know about Kirito at the very start? Well, not much, really. At the end of the first episode, we don't see a ton of huge problems. He's a gamer who got trapped within SAO, like all the rest. However, he has a preference towards being a lone wolf, generally shunning more than one partner at a time. Furthermore, he was a beta tester for SAO. This means that he has access to certain knowledge of the game [b]up to a certain point[/b]. Keep that in mind for later.[/quote]In the first episode, he helps out a newer character, Klein. At the end of the episode, the very first episode, he abandons him because Kirito wants to be sure to be the strongest and he cannot afford to wait for Klein's friends. This act of selfishness is a recurring theme throughout the arc and is a flaw that Kirito dwells on more than any other. Therefore by episode one, the statement that Kirito is a 'perfect' character is already objectively false. [quote]Now, here's the first major problem that I have. The fact that Kirito knows so much about the game beforehand. Yes, he was a beta tester, but he happened to be the very best out of all of them, presumably far surpassing them. [b]He was good at the game, the very first game of it's kind, mind you, [i]before it even came out.[/i][/b] Yes, he was a beta tester, so he's have a bit of a leg up over most other players, but the fact that he was insanely good at a completely new type of game from the get-go isn't explained beyond the fact that he just sorta was.[/quote]SAO was not the first game using Nerve Gear. Kirito had played many other games before the SAO Beta came out, and hopped between them so he could try everything. He was already a very adept Nerve Gear user by the time he was chosen for the Beta, as opposed to many of the people who only just got the machine since it was in such high demand. [quote] Kirito has now begun to establish himself as the all-powerful Gary Stu at this point. He's now level 40, double the level of the average player. How? Because he's good at the game. But again, how? Because he just is. He's just written to be good at SAO, with the only explanation being that he just is.[/quote] He leveled up during the Beta and therefore knew the majority of the game's opening, and made it his goal to get to each area of the game before anybody else so he could level up and not have to compete for monster spawns or quest drops. This is talked about in a side story and not in the anime, yes, but you're still making an assumption that voids your argument due to it being inherently incorrect. [quote] Swallow that explanation.[/quote]No thanks- because I actually know the story. :/ [quote] Now, lets look at the stories of Liz and Silica together. Both fall in love with Kirito over the course of less than 24 hours. [/quote]Being smitten =/= falling in 'true love.' [quote]First off, 24 hours is not enough time for a romance to develop. Plain and simple. Liz and Silica share less than 30 minutes of screen time with Kirito, and yet they become convinced that they are in love with him. [/quote]Both had their lives saved and had great internal revelations thanks solely to Kirito. They also see him as a hero capable of great deeds. This means there is a mix of having a crush and hero worship. Again, perfectly reasonable. You see this type of thing in many, many forms of media. Hell, even Back to the Future talks about it pretty in depth and that came out 29 years ago. It's perfectly reasonable. [quote] Speaking of Asuna, let's talk about her. Asuna just so happens to be the most attractive girl in Aincrad (going by the description in the light novel), and on top of that, she's likely the second best player in the game behind Kirito. On top of this, she comes from an extremely rich family in the real world. Already we have ourselves a Mary Sue.[/quote] Because she comes from a rich family, her brother could afford a Nerve Gear. Her brother was gone the day the Beta came out, so Asuna tried it instead. She was not a gamer, but got trapped and adapted. So there is your (real) explanation of a beautiful rich girl being in a game. Now, you have her as one of the most powerful characters. Cool. A female character is talented. Not to be Devils Advocate here, but saying that's just a cliche or something seems really, really sexist. [quote]Now, regarding episodes 5 and 6. Kirito and Asuna, the latter of which has established herself as the Vice-commander of the KoB, are now completely at odds with each other, a far cry from their relationship at the end of episode 2. Why?[quote]Because she wanted to use the NPCs as monster bait, sacrificing them. [quote] Well, aside from the fact that Kirito takes issue with Asuna's disregard for the strips of coding commonly referred to as NPCs (seriously, what's the big deal here?),[/quote]That they were no longer just computer code. It brought up a moral dilemma that wasn't really touched upon again, but was still a very interesting concept. The show 'Log Horizon' delves into it deeper, and in their case the NPCs actually ARE more than code, but to complain about it being brought up in SAO and not there as people in this thread seem to be doing? That's just grasping at straws.[quote] [quote]these two episodes are the only time we're ever given any development on Kirito's and Asuna's relationship is given any development, and that's sidetracked with a wholly unimportant murder mystery-type thing.[/quote]... A major point of the entire arc is their development. Like with Kuradeel's section, or even Heathcliff, and with Yui as well. It's constantly in the show. So... no.[quote] [quote] I'll try to be a bit more brief here. The main issue with pacing here is that, well, vast chunks of time are simply skipped over. And the time skips aren't at all uniform, either. First we jump ahead two months, and then we've jumped another six months. What happened in those six months? Surely you don't mean to say that [i]nothing[/i] of interest happened within that timeframe? And before we know it, we're already past floor 50. Barring the two or three floors that we saw involving the side stories, what happened on the other 49 floors? We're just expected to swallow that nothing happened in between all of the little side stories and the main plot, because the plot so demands it.[/quote]While it would have been nice to have more stuff shown, it wasn't necessary. The story was largely about the character development, and not just the action of clearing floors (bringing me back to the previous point). When pieces of development would occur, the story would go there. So yes, I'm sure action took place in the parts not covered by the anime. But honestly? Better skipping the parts that don't focus on what the author wants than pad it with filler. In fact, that's something a lot of people in any other anime would say is a PLUS, not a negative. But because it's SAO we have people condemning it. And that's just close minded and silly. [quote] Now, about Kirito's victory over Heathcliff. First off, he's shielded by Asuna, who somehow managed to ignore the fact that she was paralyzed. How? We don't know.[/quote]Yes we do. It's discussed at length both after Heathcliff is defeated and in the second arc. I know it's hard to pay attention when it's just people talking and no action is going on, but you've definitely gotta try in cases like this. [quote] Second, Kirito's HP reaches zero. We even see it happen. However, Kirito simply ignores that fact, somehow delaying his own death long enough to stab and kill Heathcliff. How? Again, we don't know. [/quote]Yes we do. It's discussed at length both after Heathcliff is defeated and in the second arc. I know it's hard to pay attention when it's just people talking and no action is going on, but you've definitely gotta try in cases like this. [quote] what was the villain's motive in the end? He doesn't know. Or, to put it better, he forgot. Really? The guy who was lurking in the shadows, controlling the very fabric of the game, essentially had no motive? This compromises the entirety of the plot up to this point, because none of it had a point.[/quote]Him not gibing you an answer is also a major plot point in itself that adds depth to the story. First he claims he wanted to do it so he could just interfere with the game and be God. Then it seemed he wanted to be entertained. Then he wanted to fulfill a childhood dream of making this world he envisioned since he was a child. This is actually very interesting because his character development continues even after his death. The anime covers it at length, and even in the novels it is still a matter of much discussion. It continues to be a big influence in how characters act in the world, making it an excellent plot point and very good writing. Now, I'd rather not continue with this, so I'll assume that I've made my point.
