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由Paul5013編輯：
6/26/2024 12:24:32 PM
21
Nothing can be for everyone. Bungie can try to make the game as accessible as possible, but not at the cost of quality and by disregarding the core design directions, which include multiplayer and teamplay.
If game developers wanted to make everything accessible to everyone, they wouldnt be game developers, because some people are even incapable of pressing a button.
Your disorders, disabilities, social phobias, low stress resistance and what not are not Bungie‘s responsibility. Dual Destiny as well as raids, which mostly exclude solo players as well, are good content and trying to adapt them to your personal needs would ruin them.
Play something else.
English
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I like the complexity and difficulty generation through mechanics instead of bullet sponges and enemy spam. I like, that especially in the raid race, the difficulty came from figuring out the mechanics, not from ridiculous damage requirements (once people figured out you need hunters). I like the focus on teamplay - that not everything can be done by one or a few people, but that everyone needs to know what to do and cant just claim the add clear role in the beginning. I like, that the difficulty has risen in general, regardless of its source, to make the skill gap more significant again and reward skill and effort more. Of course that can cause trouble - one of my clanmates is too dumb for trades in the fourth encounter, but keeps insisting he does everything right - but that doesnt diminish the content quality from an objective standpoint. You obviously dont like that, because you probably cant keep up. You most likely benefited from Bungie‘s efforts to increase accessibility. A larger skill gap rather makes your shortcomings obvious than your efforts feel more rewarding. You got used to be able to achieve more and cant cope with being able to do less now. Given your raid report, you obviously seem to do raids and most likely dont try to portray the game as singleplayer like some morons here. The fill of red dots does make it seem like you are having trouble with the new focus on mechanics though. These subjective difficulties are what pisses you off, but that doesnt necessarily mean the game design is trash. If difficulty was an indicator of quality, Fromsoft would not be successful. Of course Bungie is partly responsible. Making stuff more challenging gradually with the progress made in the game (like the Elden Ring DLC) works better than making stuff more difficult in a game with predetermined difficulty levels, where the top challenges are already defined. Obviously, that discourages people, causes frustration, but a rise in difficulty generally isnt a bad thing. It may feel bad for many at first, but a larger skill gap makes the game better long-term.
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First things first. No complexity whatsoever. This raid is just bad. The mechanics are boring and u sit and do nothing for most of ur time. Then while u aren't sitting waiting for the timer to countdown u are playing ping pong. There is nothing complex about that. Now the fourth encounter is not even a good puzzle everything in that encounter is counter intuitive to what it should be. That's th only reason why it took so long during challenge. Because if it made sense it would have been completed in a couple hours. Vault was different because people didn't know the actual mechanic, but the mechanic made sense. Let's just get real the raid isnt hard whatsoever, for most it's just a pain to find an lfg who knows what to do. That being said once you do find that team u have to sit and study eachothers Armour for 20 mins before the fourth encounter, which is just braindead design. The reason for all my red marks on raid report is because I don't have time to sit and wait for people to figure things out. I want in and I want put as fast as possible. And I know when a team won't be able to do certain things so I leave. This raid I will have an absolute -blam!- ton of red dots because people will never learn and I ain't teaching no one. This raid will be dead very soon because of how bad it is.
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由Paul5013編輯： 6/28/2024 6:35:21 AMSure, not complex. Just complex enough to be the hardest mechanics to figure out during a raid race lol. Fourth encounter especially. It makes sense once you fully understand it. You might get there at some point, when you stop complaining about it and actually try. You dont need to study everyone‘s looks to complete it, just make yourselves look unique enough and be capable of quick descriptions. There is more than enough time. Again, you dislike the raid because you arent good at it or at least your teams arent. Its obvious that a raid, where everyone can be forced to do mechanics. will be annoying to LFG, but that doesnt make the raid itself worse, just puts a light on the community‘s incompetency and stupidity, just like all these whiny posts on this forum. Obviously the raid is easy once you understand its mechanics. The execution isnt the problem, want in contest mode. Im too lazy to check your dots, are you perhaps just pissed you didnt manage to clear contest?
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The mechanics were figured out in a couple of hours. Except for obscure things like the brights. The 4th encounter I'll say it again ddnt make any sense and that why it took people so long to figure out. Which is different from vault in last wish because people didn't know the mechanics. I didn't even try contest because I knew it would be impossible with all the potatoes on lfg and I didn't wanna waste my time in there ,for over 30 hours, to get an emblem which literally means nothing to anyone. Now I know u probably have a group to raid with every week and that's why u like this raid because it difficult for the regular community and that means more gatekeeping for u. But in reality the raid is bad and the mechanics were poorly thought up, which make the raid boring.
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由Paul5013編輯： 6/28/2024 11:15:42 AMLike if you just keep insisting everything is pointless and makes no sense, its no wonder you will continue being unsuccessful and feeling bad about the content. 4th encounter is literally just a key-lock-system. Main room creates the locks, solo rooms trade symbols to build each key. Freeze is just a simple wipe mechanic like its used everywhere else, for example the knights in LW vault, since you keep comparing it to that encounter. Repeat three times and done. Just like vault, 4th SE encounter was hard to figure out, but is easy once you know what to do and how to do it. There literally is no major difference. Both are a pain in the -blam!- at the first clear and the most enjoyable/relaxed part of the raid once people got behind it. The only hindrance: everyone could be forced to do the mechanics, everyone needs to know them to avoid problems. Of course that will be a problem in LFGs, where at least three people on average will immediately scream that they do add clear. That is a problem of the players you choose to play with though, not the content itself. If Bungie chose to design content around the not so bright lights of the community, the game would be a disaster. It is not the first time this has been done either. Random buff applications for mechanics have always been a thing and there are many encounters, where everyone needs to do stuff regardless of any buffs (CoS boss for example). The talk about the emblem is hilarious. You are just pissed about not being in a position to get the opportunity to get it, so you just call it a waste of time nobody cares about. Same energy as some noob calling Dark Souls players masochistic, because that noob cant do stuff the rest has zero trouble with. Pure jealousy. Every raid so far, every activity that requires some brain and game sense, sucks to do with LFGs. There are rarely teams where everything is working fine. Yes, I have people to do raids with regularly - far from every week, because every raid race is followed by a phase where nobody has the motivation to touch the game, but I had a team for Day 1 that didnt have to be filled with LFGs. Just because you dont, the content isnt trash. And even in my team, the incompetency of individuals caused problems you would have with any LFG-team: For a long while I was the only person who knew what to do in the main room of the fourth encounter. We had one who would -blam!- up every trade in the individual room. Because people couldnt survive on their own, we had to move to a tactic on the second encounter, where I would clear left side alone and activate the pillar after the other sides where done and came over. Thanks to prismatic Warlock without exo class items for that. At the boss, one person kept dying from the Witness's attacks during the damage phase, even after hours of training. Juts like its popular in Trials, you people scream elitism and gatekeeping whenever something is not doable for you, whether due to skill issue, refusal to play with others and whatever else. Instead of trying to do better, you come here whining for the content be adapted to you, so you can achieve the same stuff with less effort and less skill, out of entitlement to the gear. Then you throw names at people who disagree with that and dont want to accept, that their achievements get worthless or that the game even gets worse for them like it is the case with SBMM. Obviously not every kind of difficulty is good, it shouldnt be artificial (bullet sponges, enemy spam) and the reward behind it should be worth the effort. The difficulty of Dual Destiny and the raid is totally fine though, it comes from the right sources - unlike GMs for example, that took the route of artificial difficulty.
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Again there is no difficulty in these things. The mechanics are literally just bad. Please explain what is good about them. Do you enjoy sitting there while a timer is counting down? I usually enjoy raiding, but this feels more like a chore and is not fun at all. You sit and wait and sit and wait. My favorite raid by far was last wish. Everyone had to do something, but the mechanics felt like you were doing something. And while u were doing the most of the mechanics you were moving. It never felt like u were forced to sit and wait in the same spot. Also back to contest, you can think I'm jealous but I honestly don't care and you know why. People spent 2 literal days of their life in their for an emblem, what does that accomplishment get u in the grand scheme of life? At the end of the day I play video games to enjoy myself it's a hobby not a job. But most people who play want this game to be their job, but you have to remember it never will be. When I have 2 hours at most a day to play, except weekends, I want to enjoy my time playing. And neither of those two activities are enjoyable to anyone playing right now.
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It is just pointless delusions at that point. Difficulty doesnt purely translate to "do X amount of damage/add clear in X time". You have trouble doing/understanding the mechanics and coordinating with your teammates, yet it cant possibly be you or your team that is the problem, it has to be bad game design. Your praise of Last Wish is pure nostalgia, perhaps from a time where the game didnt give you as much trouble. Just like in every raid, there are time frames where there is nothing to do, where you wait for others to complete their tasks so you can continue yours. In vault specifically, add clear is a joke and occupational therapy at best as well. The entirety of Sotp was occupational therapy. You dont even need to use glitches and such to be able to do RoN Duo. The first encounter of CoS was just add clear. EoW and VoG had/has the difficulty of a public event - worded drastically. And so on... Even more jealousy lol. Now achievements of videogames in general are suddenly worthless, because you could do something else instead. Where does it stop? Is someone's life wasted when he isnt working on a cure for cancer? Just stop. You did RoN and several dungeons Day 1 as well. Dont suddenly pretend you dont give a -blam!- when you couldnt do it for once. Stop generalizing. You and all the critics are a loud minority, nothing more, as shown by reviews and all the other good press the DLC has received - a loud minority of entitlement.
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I'm sorry but if u truly believe this raid is good u are delusional. There is nothing and I mean nothing good about it. Explain to me why the mechanics are good and what u enjoy about them. Not the team play part the actual raid mechanics that u have to complete I would like to know why u like the actual in game mechanics. Also last wish is not nostalgia. I did it in the first week it came out legit riven as well. My team completed it when everyone was 30 power under. That was rough, but I still enjoyed it much more than doing any part of this raid. And with Ron I only did day one because I saw people do it in under 2 hours, so I got a decent team on lfg and finished in 6. Dungeon don't mean anything I usually 2 man them first day with my brother because they are mostly fun,except ghost of the deep that was a drag. In all honesty why do u believe the dlc is good. Just tell me that without mentioning anything about teamplay just tell me why u like anything in this dlc.
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I'm sorry but if u truly believe this raid is good u are delusional. There is nothing and I mean nothing good about it. Explain to me why the mechanics are good and what u enjoy about them. Not the team play part the actual raid mechanics that u have to complete I would like to know why u like the actual in game mechanics. Also last wish is not nostalgia. I did it in the first week it came out legit riven as well. My team completed it when everyone was 30 power under. That was rough, but I still enjoyed it much more than doing any part of this raid. And with Ron I only did day one because I saw people do it in under 2 hours, so I got a decent team on lfg and finished in 6. Dungeon don't mean anything I usually 2 man them first day with my brother because they are mostly fun,except ghost of the deep that was a drag. In all honesty why do u believe the dlc is good. Just tell me that without mentioning anything about teamplay just tell me why u like anything in this dlc.
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At this point just suffer in silence or talk it out with your small echo chamber. Whatever other reason than the focus on teamplay I could give you for why the DLC and its raid are fine, you will deem it irrelevant or ignore it like most other stuff Ive brought up as well, while you yourself cant come up with anything else than "cant do with LFG". Here you go anyway, so you dont get what you want and can say, I dont have any reasons: [b]DLC generally:[/b] - Big and active open world with repeatable quests/activities for gear as well as an increased difficulty compared to planets before lightfall without the usage of a power limit and bullet sponges like on Neomuna - Pathfinder (just Pale Heart, definitely not playlists) as a way to make open world more worthwhile , although it is technically a rework of the bounty system I would not specifically count to the DLC, just like new raid surges and power cap - Overthrow as a rework to the waste of time that are public events (obviously they will become boring and repetitive as well, its still the lowest tier of content, the comparison matters) - A strike that against all odds and prior statements of Bungie employees doesnt seem to be a pure slog fest full of bullet sponges like Glassway We will be sure of that once it can be done on GM - The new gear is mostly usable without destroying the sandbox (except exo sniper) - Prismatic and the way of obtaining it - no tedious BS with new currency and dumb training sessions, obviously a little strong in some cases (with or without class items) but not to a point where its usage essential - Great new supers for other subclasses - The campaign had a little too much immunity BS, but apart from that it felt much more fluid and less tedious than prior legend campaigns. Story was fine as well, a lot better than everything since Forsaken, just a little to predictable - Episodes are trash, but not part of the core DLC either [b]Raid specifically:[/b] - Focus on mechanics instead of add clear and boss damage - No encounter feels like a pure, repetitive waste of time like Vow entrance or Cos 1. encounter - New version of "capture the plate" that gives you more freedom while doing the mechanics. Visibility of the circle could be a little better - Mechanics that intentionally include multi-tasking and dont have clear determined roles like add clear before the boss - The necessity for most if not everyone to know the mechanics - noob filter essentially - Failure of an individual does not automatically cause a wipe, given you are good enough not to be troubled by the wipe timer - Best boss damage phase in the game, which manages to capture the grandeur of D2's final big threat - Hand mechanic makes boss encounter more dynamic and manages to mix in RNG without making it essential or necessary at all - Creative wipe and prevention mechanic - No laggy, desynced BS like in Vow - No game-changing cheese so far undermining the experience and difficulty - Cant say much about the gear yet, just that the exo doesnt seem to be bad You are pissed, that you have trouble with the raid, and blame that on game design instead of your or your teams' shortcomings and lack of coordination. "Not nostalgia": *proceeds to reminisce about his first clear* - the comedy writes itself. You wasted... s-s-s-six hours on RoN? How could you? Could have worked on a cure for cancer instead. Wasted your life time there...
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Every single encounter in the raid feels repetitive and a waste of time u literally sit and wait on a plate. While a big ticking clock counts down in the middle of ur screen. This is not a good mechanic, again u only believe the mechanics are good because everyone has to do something. That does not make the mechanics good. Sitting by a plate and shooting adds is boring it's not fun. Again I am not struggling with the raid. The mechanics are boring, there is nothingbin there that makes the mechanics revolutionary or good. U even said it urself its another touch the plate type deal. All they did with this raid was make it more difficult for the more casual player, that's it. But that in terms for better players makes it a top tier raid when in all reality there is nothing special about it. The only good part is the witness encounter and that's because it's fun. Running the hands, is fun you have to pay attention, but some shapes looking at triangle can get a little buggy. Then u have a fun dmg phase where if ur not locked in u die.
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I started to write another big text comparing the two raids and showing, that LW mechanics are much less interesting and creative than the ones of SE, but figured it is not worth the effort, since you will ignore it all again. In short and compact: Both raids are structured similarly, build on a continuously developing main mechanic (symbols and shapes, not the plates) with surrounding secondary mechanics. The most present secondary mechanics in LW are the following: - Capturing plates at Kalli - Standing on plates to remove the shield and access the next floors at Shuro Shi - Picking up taken blights and pressing a button next to frozen targets at Morgoth - Dunking buffs at Vault - Identifying and shooting eyes at Riven - Juggling a ball and picking up taken blights again in Queen's Walk While there are definitely more different ones in LW, they dont match the creativity and complexity of SE at all before Riven. They are much more boring and simplistic. SE compares as follows: - The -blam!--Plates dont only need to be defended, but also have to be left to pick up buffs and activate the pillars to progress the encounter - The main mechanic compares best to the blights. The different symbols and key-lock-system of the fourth encounter are already a more complex and creative mechanic than these blights - Morgoth's freeze mechanic does not even come close to the one in SE, which combines statues, ghosts and communication instead of running up to a frozen player and pressing a button - Only Riven is on a comparable level to its counterpart, the Witness, in terms of creativity and innovation, but the hands are still not a bad mechanic and fittingly bring the main mechanic to a peak at the finale - The wipe timer is not only present in LW as well, but literally no issue at all in both One could argue, that LW's main mechanic makes up for the simple secondary ones, but given many people seem to hate symbols in every form, I doubt that would be successful. They also dont play nearly as much of a part as the shapes in SE do. The major difference of the two raids is, that in LW, the mechanics are either no more difficult than a public event or simply dont have to done by everyone. They also dont require much communication during their execution. You will just deny it once more, but increasing the necessity for communication and coordination is part of difficulty as well and exactly the part you have trouble with in SE. You claim, the mechanics are just bad, when they are mostly better than LW's, just with a different source of difficulty. Not with a significant rise of it though, since add clear and boss damage is not as much of a problem in SE as it used to be in LW, when it was new. You prefer braindead mechanics and an open spot for add clear at any time and that is fine, but these subjective preferences dont hurt the quality of SE at all. It definitely means a lot, that the one encounter where almost nobody has to know the mechanics is your favourite one, while Ive heard people not minding the mechanics say the complete opposite. I would go as far as arguing, that SE could even be easier for casuals down the line, given they are taking the effort to learn it, since difficulty requiring game sense to surpass is much easier to overcome than the one coming from add clear and boss damage, where the lack of available gear is already a big hindrance, let alone the mechanical skill to use it.
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What are u doing in se that makes the mechanics difficult, fun or good. You are add clearing the whole raid that's it. Killing 5-10 adds while staring at a plate doesn't make it difficult. Again the mechanics themselves are boring u sit still and stare at plates for 75% of the first 3 encounters it's not fun. But hey just as u said subjective opinions. U think a raid that forces comms makes it good. There has not been one competing argument that makes any of the actual mechanics good. You always dip back into the comms and teamplay make it good. Those alone don't make a good raid.
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I dont say the mechanics are difficult, I say that the level of difficulty, however low or high, comes from the complexity of the mechanics and the higher importance of coordination and communication instead of the typical bullet sponge and enemy spam BS. Im not the one complaining, am I? I cleared it on contest and even said, that I would say the raid is easier for casuals than LW, since learning the mechanics is the only real barrier. Nice reading and ignoring on that part once again. If the mechanics were so boring to a point you are doing nothing most of the time (literally Kalli, Morgoth and Vault btw.) - which is a moronic exaggeration but from what Ive seen on this forum, that is all you people can do to support your points - you wouldnt fail at them so badly that you come here whining about them, blaming it on LFG and what not, while at the same time reeking of jealousy. You dip into nothing. You keep repeating "raid bad, because boring" with some dumb exaggerations and ask me for reasons why I disagree. Then I give you those reasons and you ignore them to repeat the same BS again. Teamplay alone isnt enough to make a raid good, but it is an integral part of that raid, next to other stuff Ive also listed to great extend, so stop acting like it is some irrelevant aspect just because you seem to be allergic to it. Pretty much every raid forces communication, welcome to endgame. Feel free to ignore everything again to repeat the same BS, that can be summarized with skill issue. Im done wasting my time in that case.
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Killing everyone has to hold a plate and be aware of what is going on on the actual plate. Morgoth everyone has to be aware of their buffs and who get frozen. Vault not everyone is involved, but they kind of are because they have to kill knight while readers and runners do their thing. Again at least u are moving and doing things. When it comes to plates in se u sit and wait while a timer is ticking down for absolutely no reason. If the timers were there other then to just wipe you that would be fine. But they are literally there for no other reason. And then. They just disappear after the encounter. It makes no sense. Again the numbers of completions show how disliked this raid is.
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I figured out, why you would even go as far to mention the wipe timer: you must be standing around braindeadly without picking up shapes to increase it at the end of each phase. That is the only way you could possibly come to the conclusion, that capturing the plates for Kalli is anymore suspenseful than the plates in SE, where you actually need to run around and move away from the plate to do the mechanics. The nostalgia trip does not stop, it is almost adorable. Kalli is one of the most boring raid encounters in the game. You have to be aware of what is going? More so than in SE? You literally have to kill some psions (much less enemies than in any SE encounter), a major knight and move a meter to the left or right every ten seconds or so. If your damage is half decent, you might not even need to avoid the wipe by literally just moving forward, even without doing any damage beforehand. Are you actually trying to argue, that Kalli is a more exciting raid encounter than any of the new raid? Unlike in SE, where you need keep in mind what buffs you need (last), be careful not to accidentally charge up too many and keep the timer in mind that kills you, you need to be able to count to 2 at Morgoth. How incredibly exciting. The freeze is a joke as well. Plenty of time to free someone, very easy to do so and no stakes behind it. Barely if any communication or coordination needed. The most embarrassing damage requirement of any boss - at least before the power changes I have not tried out yet, because nothing of the old content is worth the trouble anymore. Another delusion. In vault, the add clear is a joke and if you consider the knights to be any kind of threat, you are terrible at the game. So three people are basically a waste of space. Then there is the mechanic, where one person is doing nothing after finding out the buffs, one is doing free add clear as well and one is running around doing a basic dunk mechanic - rotating with each dunk. Plenty of room to fix mistakes, no threats at all, an easy mechanic once understood. One of the easiest trio encounters in the game. A wipe timer as well by the way, but you like that raid more, so lets pretend it is not there, right? What is so bad about wipe timers? Without it, the mechanics would simply not work, because you could try as long as you wanted to. Wipe timers or limits to damage phases with a similar effect are necessary in every encounter, whether visible or not, triggered by something specific or not. In SE it can pretty much be ignored, given you know that you are supposed to increase it by dunking shapes and therefore collect some. The numbers of completions do not purely reflect people's opinion on the raid, but also their abilities to do it. Some people that were able to do other raids due to static add clear roles in every encounter will naturally have trouble to complete something, when they suddenly have to do mechanics as well. Going by my LFG experience, that is like half the incompetent community already. Then there is the raid race, some people who are not as experienced with endgame will use as an indicator on whether they want to try the raid out or pass. Given, that the completions below the 24-hour-mark have never been as low, it should not even be hard for you to figure out, what decision these people would make on that basis. Also, the guides, at least till shortly after the raid race, were garbage. Wrong explanations, overly complicated explanations, bad gameplay to show what has to be done, misconceptions about the connections between different mechanics and the effect of some actions. Considering how integral guides are for most content in the game, I would not wonder if the majority of people who wants to clear the raid has struggled with these.
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Depends on how you limit yourself, people who don't mind socialising are able to experience 100% of the content. What you are hitting is a content wall because of refusal to socialise. The raid IMO is something I might give a go once a homie of mine has figured it out. Contest seems pretty punishing but other than that, from what I heard, it's pretty chill, no boss dps checks until the witness. As for dual destiny, most are never going to play the mission again simply due to efficiency, why would I go through the trouble if I can just do overthrow.
