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由Wes編輯：
10/4/2022 7:18:27 PM
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The requirement for "Flawless" in Trials makes skill creep inevitable.
Pretty obvious here. If [i]all[/i] of the most desirable rewards are locked behind flawless, there will [i]always[/i] be a group that can't achieve it. Add when they leave, a new "bottom group" takes their place, and now it is unachievable for them. And this continues and the Trials population dips, as it does every season.
And the flawless pool doesn't even help this. It just means once the players who can [i]barely go flawless[/i] once do so, they should stop playing. Everyone else should just wait until Sunday or Monday.
Now the "git gud" argument doesn't work with skill creep. If Trials had a true ranking system, sure. It works there (as arrogant as that phrase can sound). But skill creep taken to the extreme is the top 10% gets farmed by top 9%. Should part of the top 10% just become top 9%? What about when they do and the top 9% just farms those top 10% until they leave, leaving the top 1-9%? Now those top 9% players are the bottom of the barrel, and this just repeats. Skill creep makes "getting gud" just [i]temporarily mitigate[/i] the core issue, it does not solve the root of the issue:
[b][i]People are leaving the playlist[/i][/b], leaving only the top players and making the mode unapproachable to the majority. If this cycle continues, [i][b]Trials dies[/b][/i].
Not to mention "getting gud" only works if you improve faster than skill creep corrupts the playlist, and that is a TALL order.
Healthy ranked modes don't have skill creep because you progress through skill ranks until you hit a wall. Then you improve and hit another wall. [i]The base skill level on ranked modes stays static, as long as the mode has a healthy population.[/i] This is not true for Trials.
So while "git gud" applies to ranked modes (again, as arrogant as that can sound), it doesn't really apply to the current state of Trials.
That being said, [i]rewards still need to be earned[/i], and [i][b]flawless must still be valuable and desirable to maintain the identity of Trials. [/b][/i]
I think Trials needs a complete overhaul.
Flawless should still exist and be meaningful, but if that is the [i]only[/i] chase, people won't stay.
My idea:
1. Add more loot quality loot each season. Every season should have a full armor set or ornaments and a few new weapons.
2. Going flawless is the only way to get ships, shaders, sparrows, emblems, and unique Trials armor ornaments.
3. Upon going flawless, the chest drops 2 Adepts with extra perks in each column, proportional to your Saint-14 rank (like Crucible, Vanguard, etc.), as well as high stat roll armor and vanity items from item 2.
4. Farming on a 7 win card after flawless gives more adepts with extra perks, but you only match players doing the same thing. This is the most efficient farm for the best players.
5. For everyone else, getting to 7 wins, regardless of losses, gives an adept and high stat roll armor. (They do NOT get the vanity items and unique armor.)
6. And this where I'll lose some folks. Remove the flawless pool and freelance. Instead, try to weight matching so solos match solos OR teams they have a reasonable chance of defeating. The flawless pool doesn't need to be there if a large portion of players are farming game 7 anyways.
7. In-game LFG needs to be here. I know it is coming, but Trials would REALLY benefit from it.
8. Encourage solos to group up. Vote to keep teams, rather than re-quueing. Maybe even add bonus rep from grouping up. Something.
9. Lastly, input based matchmaking. PC should be able to play with next gen consoles as long as thy're on controller. This will make the playerbase much healthier. This also means to ban XIM and Cronus, and potentially just add MnK support for consoles.
Edit:
10. A Trials item that can be equipped to [i]any card[/i] that makes armor drop with 20 minimum on any stat of your choice on wins would be HUGE. This ties into item 1, obviously. But I just though of it so I figured I'd throw it in here.
Now this is just an idea. But it is obvious the current model is not sustainable, and flawless needs to have [i]some[/i] value.
[spoiler]And before someone says "Oh you just saw a YouTube video, yes. I've seen it. But several of my ideas here are original, and I've had the rest LONG before that. That particular content creator is just the only one who takes a step back and thinks about more casual players. As such, I will not be replying to any streamer hate, and I suggest the rest of you do the same.[/spoiler]
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由PS1 Hagrid編輯： 10/6/2022 7:52:49 PMWell streamers are saying allow the adepts to drop on 7 wins even when not flawless, now if bungie only listen to streamers according to 90% of the community then we could see this change eventually. If they never add it then well that just proves that streamers have no control over what is added or nerfed or whatever and bungie doesn't listen to them. Me personally I believe it makes the most sense to allow adepts to drop on 7 wins without flawless and keeping the cosmetics for flawless like the ships, sparrows, mementos, etc.
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1 回覆I wouldn’t call what you’re describing as skill creep. It’s the mode and player base cannibalizing itself. It keeps eating the lower skilled players until all that’s left is higher skilled players. This happened with Trials before solo queuing was allowed in Trials about a year ago at this point. Allowing solo players to queue without a premade fire team and making loot more abundant flooded the pool with more players. Most of them easier to beat which made going flawless possible for teams that couldn’t before. To me Skill creep would be the player base itself actually getting better and better. And with the same amount of players every season the competition gets tougher and tougher. “Lower skilled” players are not losing as often and “higher skilled” players are not winning as often, or their games are much closer all the time than they used to be. Even this version of Trials will eventually cannibalize itself. We see it every season as player count drops off when the more casual players get the loot they want and stop sticking around to be an easy win and a punching bag. It’s only the new weapons and armor designs that bring them back. But because this is all they want, most not caring about flawless, it’s a big reason why so many solo players want permanent Freelance. They feel entitled to the loot now and don’t want to be punching bags for coordinated and skilled teams. Freelance would exacerbate the cannibalization of the main trials mode very quickly. So a question arises “what should flawless be worth?” Giving people adept loot without going flawless won’t stop the teams trying to go flawless. It won’t make the games easier for the solo, casual player. They will still just get what they want and leave. It would just drive the entitlement even higher for them as now they want less losses, less beatings just to get to 7 wins, so they will demand not only permanent Freelance, but also SBMM. I bet many, if not most solo casuals that play Trials never stick around for 7 wins. They get tired of losing and getting beat up before then. So they get their non-adept loot, and maybe the one pinnacle for 50 points, then leave. Maybe adept loot at any 7 wins will make them stick it out longer, but they’ll get resentful over it. That it’s just within reach, but the journey is painful. And all the while it isn’t going to stop good teams from going flawless. Loot is the answer, but allowing adept loot to be earned by non-flawless guardians isn’t necessarily it. It legitimately will take new loot to keep the solo casual coming back. Because the only people who have fun in trials and play it for fun are the people with the skill that affords them the luxury of enjoying the mode. So Bungie needs to keep bribing the solo casuals, and make it where losing over and over is ok for them. While on the top end you want to encourage flawless people to not reset their passages as often. Often I might not even notice when I’ve lost 3 games of Control in a row. Not unless it feels like an unbalanced beat down. But I notice when I lose in Trials. Every single loss, because there are those rewards for seven wins. And I should feel those in Trials. And Trials does reward me enough that for a while Im willing to endure all those losses.
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1 回覆The people that want adept weapons for not actually achieving flawless (even with a passage of mercy) are 2 types of people, those who can’t go flawless and those who farm trials stats and want it to be even easier. Streamers continuously say give adept weapons for not going flawless so they the pool is hyper diluted which means they can get through games faster with a far bigger pool of players because adept weapon farming is meaningless when you go flawless 20+ times a week.
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MelloRange#1 Chinjireta fan!!!!! - 舊
Skill creep? You’re telling me people with skill are better at a game, I’ll be damned. -
3 回覆Gonna disagree with ya right from the start. Other than the memento I don’t think there is that much desire. GMs and master level content(including trials) really don’t have much to show for them. You can earn all the gear in Trials by struggling in it and not going flawless and in my opinion adepts are not worth the [u][b]grind at all in any setting[/b][/u]. GMs and Trials are alive because some people find them fun more than they do hunting for the rewards. Or at least that’s how I play and look at it. Not saying your other points are wrong or the rest of your post is incorrect just wanted to give my 2 cents on this.
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7 回覆Adepts are legitimately worse than the crafted weapons. I have both so I know. I hardly every use my adepts and what I use isn't trials weapons because they are kinda niche. You want an adept burden of guilt, a crafted deliverance will win 8 out of ten times. Ntm raids are a lot easier than going flawless, as it should be. And getting the red borders are so easy now it's not even a challenge. The little plus ten mod can't compete with enhanced perks
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3 回覆This isn't meant to dismiss your post, but adept loot is simply not necessary. I use at least 5 regular versions of Trials/master raid guns over my worse adept/Timelost rolls of the same weapons. We don't need adept loot; we want it because it says Adept and is a tiny, tiny bit better. I'm just as guilty of it as anyone, but it's the truth.
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1 回覆Skill creep lol. Bruh destiny takes no skill, this game revolves around who has the biggest cheese. No one in trials plays fair, they all use the most OP stuff they can find and enhance the build with cheese stuff to get an advantage. For example, a le monarque use can give you a hard time but at least you could still outplay them. A le monarque user using the quickswap combo on the other hand, can make your life a living hell. Its all about who can cheese who. Trials is a flawed mode, I don’t think it can ever be fixed
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4 回覆1. Remove Flawless Pool and allow Freelance to be once a month thing. (I’m not a fan of freelance, but once a month won’t hurt to allow players to dip their toes” 2. It prioritizes matching parties of 3’a and 2’s together and 1’s vs 1’s, but after X amount of time that a match isn’t formed it will dip into the solo’s 3. Loot is everything. They keep changing MM and all these pools when all they have to do is have S-Tier loot and people will flock. 4. Furthermore on loot: Trials and IB should have a Kinetic, Energy, and Heavy of every freaking archetype in the game along with crafting. 5 normal let’s you craft and 5 adept let you craft. 5. This is where we differ. -Playing Matches will drop armor and non adept loot. -Matches won have a 50% chance to drop random armor and/or non adept loot. -Matches lost have a 25% chance to drop random armor and/or non adept loot. Every week the 3,5, and 7 wins will alternate between a set random weapon at 3 and armor at 5 and 7. The next week will be a set armor at 3 and a weapon at 5 and 7. It will change every week. -Going Flawless is the same way. Since there are a lot of weapons. Essential 2 weapons of every archetype (kinetic and energy) the flawless drop will either be 2 targeted drops a week or each time you go it’s random. It could also be a set kinetic, energy, and heavy perk week. Continuing on the Flawless conversation. My issue with today’s generation is people are lazy or don’t care to achieve a goal and would instead have things easier. I grew up playing H2 and H3 competitively where if you got your sh!t ran and you wanted to improve you spent the time to do so. Most of us “sweats” didn’t just wake up and got on being really good at PvP. For me I didn’t even play Destiny for it’s PvP until Destiny 1 Trials came out. I went flawless the first weekend Trials came out, but it wasn’t a breeze because I haven’t played this game for it’s PvP, but the game finally offered something to go for that’s exciting and gets the heart pumping. I wanted to become good enough that going flawless was easier. I wanted to be good to help friends improve and go flawless. I wanted to be good so I can become one of the best in the Trials playlist. I wanted to be good to help others improve and go flawless. If people are tired of “getting farmed” or struggling to go flawless or they’ve never been they NEED to dedicate the time to improve, but if they are a “PvE only” player or have 0 desire to get better then they need to accept that going flawless is something that might not happen or not often. People are so entitled these days lol. For those who don’t know how. Do research to find a character you want to main, find the loadout you are more interested in or loadouts (I’m a HC/Sniper Main, but will also shotgun), after your loadout research the does and don’t with mods, and began watching some of the big PvP content creators to learn stuff. What’s always worked for me going back to Halo 2 is playing against better players. Doing 1v1’s and Scrims. These has always improved me the fastest in every FPS I’ve ever played. Shoot I tell people all the time to add me and we can mess around in a crucible match and I will attempt to give feedback and tips. This isn’t me gatekeeping, bragging, or trying to EGO. PvP has been neglected for years and it just keeps getting worse. Trials is the only thing us PvP mains really have
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6 回覆You mean Adept weapons? They're only for show. You have to complete the hardest content in the game without them to even get them right? So what's the point? Back in D1 Adept weapons meant something because they allowed elemental damage on primary weapons. They were also exotic class. In D2, meh. Bungie can keep them.
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9 回覆4. Farming on a 7 win card gives more adepts with extra perks, but you only match players doing the same thing. This is the most efficient farm for the best players. Wouldn't this just kill Trials that much quicker ? i mean imagine if you could get all of the adept weapons in one week, why would you come back the next week ? 5. For everyone else, getting to 7 wins, regardless of losses, gives an adept and high stat roll armor. (They do NOT get the vanity items and unique armor.) So the weapons isn't the main selling point of going flawless ? If flawless only gaved you the ship, shaders, sparrows, emblems, and unique Trials armor ornaments. then i feel like alot less people would wanna go flawless and flawless would un-rewarding. 6. And this where I'll lose some folks. Remove the flawless pool and freelance. Instead, try to weight matching so solos match solos OR teams they have a reasonable chance of defeating. The flawless pool doesn't need to be there if a large portion of players are farming game 7 anyways. But freelance is solo. So you wanna remove Solo only queue and have Bungie change it so that if you solo queue on the normal Trials matchmaking then it will detect that you are a solo player and should only be matched up with other solos ? I don't see that happening. 8. Encourage solos to group up. Vote to keep teams, rather than re-quueing. Maybe even add bonus rep from grouping up. Something. Then you aren't solo anymore, you are now a mute group. 9. Lastly, input based matchmaking. PC should be able to play with next gen consoles as long as thy're on controller. This will make the playerbase much healthier. This also means to ban XIM and Cronus, and potentially just add MnK support for consoles. Wtf, again you want them to implement a whole new system to detect certain things for a specific game mode. So somehow they will make a barrier between pc and console players that can only be broken if a pc player has a controller plugged in. What is stopping me from plugging in my controller but still using my mouse and keyboard ? nothing. 10. A Trials item that can be equipped to any card that makes armor drop with 20 minimum on any stat of your choice on wins would be HUGE. This ties into item 1, obviously. But I just though of it so I figured I'd throw it in here. 20+ on a given stat . What the serious -blam!- ? Do you know how broken that would be ? Ok so what if you are up against some people that has 3 weeks more than you on Trials ? their armor stats is gonna be insane and they will have a pretty damn high advantage over you, not to mention all of their adept weapons that they will have thanks to Number 4 and 5. Did you think before you made this list ?
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I literally gave up any hope of ever competing in trials. I’ve not played a single trials game since it’s inception. None. Saw 1 stream and realized there was 0 point in attempting it. I suffer pretty severe anxiety and depression, and trials would just increase this even more. It’s annoying the banners that pop up by Bungie in game, trying to advertise a playlist I simply can’t bring myself to play. They can argue mental health and inclusivity, but trials doesn’t help with either. And yet, Bungie keeps trying to convince me to play. Why can’t they just realize I literally gave up hope of even trying the playlist?
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6 回覆The idea of "skill creep" is conceptually flawed it implies a connection to concepts like power creep, but the reason power creep can happen in the first place is because there is no hard upper limit. Things can theoretically go as high as one would like. Skill creep, by that definition, can't exist. The concept of a "skill floor" and a "skill ceiling" exist for a reason. There is only so low you can start while still being capable of performing a task, and there is only so high that your skill at executing it can go before it's humanly impossible to go further. Eventually, the top 1-10% will reach the skill ceiling. They won't be able to get any better, because it's not humanly possible to do so, and then they will deteriorate due to factors like age slowing reaction time. Skill creep can't exist for those reasons.
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1 回覆由michael編輯： 10/4/2022 4:31:07 PMI am of the opinion that at this point the concept of flawless should just be taken out of the game, get the lighthouse and all of its rewards for just getting 7 wins on a card, maybe lock some cosmetics behind flawless. Maybe make it 9 or 10 wins to comensate and get rid of the mercy card (literally everyone buys the mercy card anyway), thats still something that is difficult for a lot of players. I just find flawless with the state of the meta and the playerbase and matchmaking to be too unrealistic of an ask
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So long as the rewards for non-flawless fames is significant lower tier players will always be encouraged to play the mode. I'd say make those games more rewarding and you'll be fine. I think freelance weeks are totally fine but should not be permanent as bungies goals for even allowing solo que was for solo players to TRY the mode. Not have an entirely seperate version of trials
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You know the reason why trials is so hard is because Bungie does a terrible job with their new light experience and therefore bring in no new blood leaving the the remaining population to canabalize itself. Anyone new to this game NOW is only here because their friends dragged them in and I can almost guarantee they told said new person to stay away from the crucible.
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1 回覆I don't buy the in-game LFG argument. Yes I suppose it's very slightly more convenient, but I don't see what problem it actually fixes, because there isn't one. Unless someone doesn't have a smart phone in 2022 🤷🏻♂️
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No point in worrying about a skill creep........when Bungie have been making weapons that render skill irrelevant. I mean if I can do a 2 frame turn pull the trigger on arbalest , still get my kill despite my reticle being to their right. What's the point of getting better?
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4 回覆It's just common sense. If someone just started playing this game, they obviously won't be very good at pvp (mostly). There is no sbmm in Trials, so the new guy will probably match someone with 2000+ or even more hours in pvp. They will have 0 chance to win. What people do when they have 0 chance to win? They stop playing, which is logical, cause they know they will have to grind pvp for a 1000 hours at least, to even stand a chance. Participation trophy is a must if you want to atract new players and keep the game alive long term. Bungie are obviously realising that lately and are moving more in that direction, very slowly though.
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All we ‘Git gud, skrubs’ canon fodder low tier solo Casuals want is a fair fight, against players at / around / just above our (‘rank’) level. We do not want to be farmed by stacked teams of squealers who are afraid of fighting other teams of squealers, or, perish the thought - actual top tier players / teams who would wipe the floor with them. Comp / Trials needs a workable ranking system. 7 wins should be enough to take anyone to the Lighthouse for all loot. Period. 7 Flawless wins gets a Black Scarab emblem or other distinctive shaders / emblems. Etc… BHQ knows all this…it’s been a constant entreaty since way back. It ain’t rocket science. But, they simply ignore or continue to faff about adjusting this or that, which satisfies no one… 🧐 If I really, really wanted to go to the Lighthouse just to get the loot, and ‘flex’ at my magnificent achievement, I’d use a boosting company (y’all know them, as their ads appear all over UTubers’ vids, and more…) - but that’s not what Trials / Comp is about for this 0.3% k/d tortoise; all I want is a fair fight…and a bit of PvP fun, that’s all! 🤖 TLDR: 🍌 Just my 2d worth. YMMV Cheers! MDGA 👈
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由DiZ編輯： 10/4/2022 5:38:42 AMI like all these ideas. I also think they should change all Adept weapons (and alternately titled Adepts, like Harrowed) to work like the Timelost weapons, where 2 additional perks part of an "ideal roll" that work to a specific power fantasy are set every time, assuming they aren't already. [spoiler]i.e. Overflow + Cluster Bombs on Hezen Vengeance, EP + Firefly on Fatebringer; not always the strongest combo, but absolutely solid[/spoiler] I don't believe a new armor set for Trials every season is feasible at this point in time, nor will it ever be. But agreed, more cosmetics should definitely be available, and some would either only come from going flawless or be guaranteed from it while having random chances to drop throughout the card. I personally never care for the ships, ghosts, and sparrows (although the latter is more of a functional issue than cosmetic one; Scourge sparrow too stronk), but a unique, [b][i]obtainable[/i][/b] shader would be more than enough for me if it's to my liking. [spoiler]And if being able to put it on everything feels like it devalues the exclusivity, then just allow it to only be put on weapons and armor sets/ornaments from that playlist/activity. You won't get people to farm additional god-rolls on their armor/weapons just because there's a unique shader on it. This goes for all Adept/Flawless shaders btw, and it'd be nice if it was retroactive. So if I really like the default shader applied to the Harrowed King's Fall weapons, I can apply it to all my King's Fall weapons and armor/ornaments; same for VoG; same for GM Nightfall Adepts and Strike armor. That's probably a really annoying system to implement well, but I think it'd be worth it.[/spoiler] The Egyptian aesthetic that the cosmetics are designed around never really do it for me, although I've liked every single Warlock helmet. [spoiler]I'd also appreciate it if the Ligthouse chest dropped an extra, random armor piece as a pinnacle, because if your weapons are maxed (or at least one in that slot for the weapon that week is), it doesn't help your light level at all.[/spoiler]
